Violin

[Kristi Mirra]

Hello. I’m looking for some guidance regarding my violin that my parents bought me in 1985 from a “fine instrument” shop downtown Chicago. I have not played it in decades, and I truly don’t know its value, and I am ready to sell it. It is an August Gemunder & Sons “concert series” No. 107. I’ve been the owner of it since 1985. No cracks. No repairs. But I do not know anything about violins. It’s labeled and hand numbered, which I know could mean nothing. Any suggestions as to what I should do to sell it?  Thank you for any help. 

[GeorgeH]

This is a description of "The  Concert Series” product line from an 1892 August Gemunder & Sons Catalog. Basically, these were better quality German trade violins from around the turn of the century. August Gemunder & Sons imported them and then supposedly re-graduated them to improve the tone.

To sell it, you could take it to a local dealer to see if they would be interested in selling it on consignment or buying it outright. You could also send pictures of it to Tarisio in NY to see if they might sell it in their T2 auction. Or you could list it on eBay and/or Reverb.

[Brad Dorsey]

Note that the catalog excerpt that GeorgeH put up is dated 1892, and the violin was priced at $100.  In 1892, this was not a cheap violin.  Since yours appears to be in excellent condition, I expect that its retail price in a good violin shop today would be at least several thousand dollars.  I think that George’s suggestions of selling it through a violin shop or consigning it to a Tarisio auction are both good ideas.

[Kristi Mirra]

31 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

This is a description of "The  Concert Series” product line from an 1892 August Gemunder & Sons Catalog. Basically, these were better quality German trade violins from around the turn of the century. August Gemunder & Sons imported them and then supposedly re-graduated them to improve the tone.

To sell it, you could take it to a local dealer to see if they would be interested in selling it on consignment or buying it outright. You could also send pictures of it to Tarisio in NY to see if they might sell it in their T2 auction. Or you could list it on eBay and/or Reverb.

Thank you so much!  I really appreciate your advice 

[Kristi Mirra]

19 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Note that the catalog excerpt that GeorgeH put up is dated 1892, and the violin was priced at $100.  In 1892, this was not a cheap violin.  Since yours appears to be in excellent condition, I expect that its retail price in a good violin shop today would be at least several thousand dollars.  I think that George’s suggestions of selling it through a violin shop or consigning it to a Tarisio auction are both good ideas.

Ok!  Thank you!  You both have truly helped me. 

[Jonathan B]

There are hundreds of thousands of German violins of that era, and I suspect the real experts here will need better photographs to confirm that yours is the "better quality" @GeorgeH suggests. But if it is, and you are wanting to sell it, you will be best working through a shop that can sell it on that quality even if you have to pay commission.

[Kristi Mirra]

Just as a side note…..I begged my parents when I was 5 years old to play violin. I grew up in Belguim, and played on stage w Dr. Suzuki. My Dad waited until I was 12/13 yrs old to purchase a quality violin. I just don’t want to do my deceased Dad wrong…..with a sale. My parents spent A LOT in 1985…..and now, here I am being told no one can validate the authenticity of the label. (Only 2 people I tried) 

[Kristi Mirra]

Just as a side note…..I begged my parents when I was 5 years old to play violin. I grew up in Belguim, and played on stage w Dr. Suzuki. My Dad waited until I was 12/13 yrs old to purchase a quality violin. I just don’t want to do my deceased Dad wrong…..with a sale. My parents spent A LOT in 1985…..and now, here I am being told no one can validate the authenticity of the label. (Only 2 people I tried) 

[Brad Dorsey]

23 minutes ago, Kristi Mirra said:

…hear I am being told no one can validate the authenticity of the label…

No one here told you that.

 

22 minutes ago, Kristi Mirra said:

…I just don’t want to do my deceased Dad wrong…..with a sale…

Then don’t sell it.  (But how would selling it do your Dad wrong?)

[Spelman]

Aw, cute! Glad your parents got you a nice instrument to enjoy.

Do I read that you are interested in selling it or are you wanting to hold on to it?

It looks nice and in excellent shape after all these years, it seems that its previous owners (and you!) took very good care of it. Must have been loved...or stuck under a bed but I don't think something that nice would be exiled to silence for a long period of time.

If you'd like better info on your fiddle, please post photos according to the guide in the pinned post at the top. There are certain angles and close ups of details that can help the experts get a better idea.

 

[GeorgeH]

49 minutes ago, Spelman said:

If you'd like better info on your fiddle, please post photos according to the guide in the pinned post at the top. There are certain angles and close ups of details that can help the experts get a better idea.

I think that it is pretty clearly what the label says it is: A nice German trade violin marketed and sold by August Gemunder & Sons under the "Concert Series" model label. The same violin could have been sold for a similar price but a different label by any number of music houses back in the day. 

August Gemunder & Sons had a good reputation as makers:

“They were making instruments that people could buy and use,” says Philip Kass, a Pennsylvania-based violin expert and author. “The instruments were better quality than the kind of things you got from Sears, Roebuck and Co. And during their great heyday, from the 1880s to the 1920s, the Gemünders—along with the Friedrichs and H.R. Knopf—were probably the leading violin makers in New York City.”

 @Brad Dorsey is correct that $100 was a fairly expensive price for a violin around the 1900s considering that you could buy very cheap violins for $2.00. (There are German violins in that same August Gemunder & Sons catalog priced at $8.00.) Competition to sell violins was strong, and music houses had to price competitively. So they graded their instruments and priced them accordingly. This violin looks exactly as the model described in the 1892 catalog, though I suppose one cannot tell if it was actually re-graduated.

[Hempel]

From Strings Magazine: https://stringsmagazine.com/when-the-gemunder-brothers-ruled-american-violin-making/

<quote>

“There had been nobody of that level of quality until that time,” (referring to George Gemunder in New York City, and perhaps US) says Kass. August soon followed George, establishing a separate Manhattan business and producing violins that were “very ordinary, decent-quality German instruments, inspired a little bit by Knopf or Friedrich, who would have been the other principal makers in New York at that time. But they’re not in a class with what George was making.” 

</quote>

Let's not get too carried away with superlatives.

[GeorgeH]

12 hours ago, Hempel said:

Let's not get too carried away with superlatives.

August's violins were never the quality of his brother George's, but that is not what we are talking about here. Makers' firms like August Gemünder's and John Friedrich's also imported violins of various grades of quality and sold them at price points corresponding to their grades. The OP has one of the nicer-grade and more-expensive imported German violins of the period in apparently excellent condition.

[Richf]

The 1892 violins were labeled "German Concert Violin," but later the "German" was dropped, and some of those "Concert Violins" were made in Japan, too.  A couple years ago I had one that looked just like yours that sold at Tarisio's T2 auction for just over $2K.  I recall that T2 sold another similar one more recently for something comparable.  You could ask them about the price history.  

[Kristi Mirra]

Thank you all for your help. Extremely helpful information. Thank you. 

[Brad Dorsey]

11 hours ago, Richf said:

...some of those "Concert Violins" were made in Japan...

That would have been after 1914, when war mobilization stopped the export of German (and French) violins to the United States, and the importation of Japanese violins greatly increased to fill the demand here.

The violin pictured above is not Japanese.

[Blank face]

10 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

That would have been after 1914, when war mobilization stopped the export of German (and French) violins to the United States, and the importation of Japanese violins greatly increased to fill the demand here.

The violin pictured above is not Japanese.

At least it's not labelled "German" but simply concert violin, therefore not comparable to the catalogue violins and their pricing, if you want to take such generalisations seriously at all (I don't). From the photos it looks to me nice, but humble. 2K Dollar would be a good price IMO. Just saying.

[GeorgeH]

Underneath the “Trademark” line on the label there is an illegible “Made In…“ line. I suppose it said “Germany.” No one knows the exact year this violin was made, but I suspect later than 1892. It would not be unusual for a shop to print new labels. I have no doubt this label is original to the violin. I don’t have copies of later AG&S catalogs to compare, but this violin is clearly of German origin.

I have heard that labels sometimes have references to German origin scratched out or removed by their owners after WWI due to anti-German sentiments in the US. Maybe that is what happened here.

[Blank face]

One cannot know if a violin from an 1892 catalogue was comparable with a slightly similar but different labelled one from 20 years later, or 30...Except you have enough examples at hand to compare them.

[Hempel]

August Gemünder & Sons trademark as published in the Official Gazette:

[GeorgeH]

Other examples of AG&S labels. One showing a similar label to the OPs for the EXCELSIOR model and another later label for their trademarked “Concert” violin model line. 

[GeorgeH]

@Kristi Mirra can you post some pictures of both ends of the bow? Well lit and close-up views of both sides.

[Kristi Mirra]

I have one end of the bow I can post. My violin is currently at my sisters in Chicago. Only because the shop my parents bought it from, is several blocks away from her downtown.  I did have new hair put on the bow since this pic. My Dad is dead, my Mom almost 83. She said the bow was almost 1k in 1985 and the violin 3k+. She can’t recall exactly. I do remember choosing this violin and my Mom whispering to me, NEVER tell your Dad how much it was. Hahaha. If my parents got ripped off, don’t tell me.  lol 

[Blank face]

15 hours ago, Kristi Mirra said:

If my parents got ripped off, don’t tell me.  lol 

It's not possible to say if they were "ripped off" without knowing about the circumstances of sale and the average pricing for similar violins at the particular time and place. Violin prices can go up and down, it all depends of the market situation, supply and demand etc.

[Richf]

The stamp on the bow is W. Seifert.  That would be a workshop bow from the Lothar Seifert firm in Germany.  Nickel mounted.  They are still sold today, so you can check current prices.