Sharpening for Bow making vs Violin repair

[JacksonMaberry]

I'm still hoping for a pencil sketch that shows what's going on, as I'm more of a visual learner, but I appreciate the efforts made to this point to help me understand whats at issue. 

I would like to try it, once I understand it. I have a nice and growing collection of tropical hardwoods that I'm hoping to make baroque bows out of, and so far playing with things like sinker bloodwood and pernambuco have been messy. All of my planes are tuned for spruce or maple, and I've found i have to readjust them steeper to have good results on the wild stuff of bows. 

[Rico Suave]

Old 2009 MN thread on the subject of scraper planes

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/319915-scraper-plane/

New link for Schwartz write-up article ref'd in last post

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/first-look-veritas-small-scraping-plane/

 

and another 2010 thread

 

[JPherson]

2 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I'm still hoping for a pencil sketch that shows what's going on, as I'm more of a visual learner, but I appreciate the efforts made to this point to help me understand whats at issue. 

I would like to try it, once I understand it. I have a nice and growing collection of tropical hardwoods that I'm hoping to make baroque bows out of, and so far playing with things like sinker bloodwood and pernambuco have been messy. All of my planes are tuned for spruce or maple, and I've found i have to readjust them steeper to have good results on the wild stuff of bows. 

I’m struggling also. But this is what I think I understand. (Please forgive the stick figure plane it’s kinda bad and may be more confusing than it helps. ) 

Jesse

 

[Rico Suave]

Intrigued, I just reground the Blade of a salvaged Stanley 60 1/2 Block Plane to about 75 Deg. using the TLAR (that looks about right) method.

The blade was ground, bevel up, on an 8" 1750 slow speed Grinder with a white fine stone, with about a 1/32 (TLAR) wide flat. The blade was reinstalled bevel up and having done nothing more. The depth of cut was adjusted and set to test on a scrap of curly sugar maple.  I was rewarded with fine shavings and will now dedicate this salvaged and repurposed Stanley 60 1/2 Block plane as a scraper plane to use along with my Japanese Dai Naoshi Kanna.

I didn't remove the burr left from the Grinder, but will experiment more, later, by flattening and smoothing the back and edge on Spiderco Ceramic Stones and turning the burr with a burnishing rod, or maybe not at all.  

[nathan slobodkin]

On 12/29/2024 at 4:44 PM, JPherson said:

I’m struggling also. But this is what I think I understand. (Please forgive the stick figure plane it’s kinda bad and may be more confusing than it helps. ) 

Jesse

 

Yes, that’s it. The turned edge should be just barely there looking much like the upper drawing ( not as big as the lower drawing). Bill would sometimes reach through to mouth of the plane with a pointed burnisher to gently turn the edge down without taking the blade out. As I said before when this is done on chisels it allows the chisel to be used almost like a plane with the flat side held down hard and a very thin shaving coming off as the tool is pushed forward. He used that to shape the slide channel and the recess for the heel plate leaving a dead smooth and flat bottom to the recesses.

[fiddlecollector]

25 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Yes, that’s it. The turned edge should be just barely there looking much like the upper drawing ( not as big as the lower drawing). Bill would sometimes reach through to mouth of the plane with a pointed burnisher to gently turn the edge down without taking the blade out. As I said before when this is done on chisels it allows the chisel to be used almost like a plane with the flat side held down hard and a very thin shaving coming off as the tool is pushed forward. He used that to shape the slide channel and the recess for the heel plate leaving a dead smooth and flat bottom to the recesses.

Isnt that what i mentioned on the previous page in the bad photo but explained underneath???

[JPherson]

34 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Isnt that what i mentioned on the previous page in the bad photo but explained underneath???

Sorta. Your pic shows the plane being pulled vs mine being pushed. At least that’s how i interpreted the drawing. 
Jesse

[fiddlecollector]

59 minutes ago, JPherson said:

Sorta. Your pic shows the plane being pulled vs mine being pushed. At least that’s how i interpreted the drawing. 
Jesse

Yes but i did say with a normal bevel angle and pushed to the left . The image i initially put on  was pulled off google and is a scraper plane setup.Andi did say hook is exaggerated.

[nathan slobodkin]

1 hour ago, JPherson said:

Sorta. Your pic shows the plane being pulled vs mine being pushed. At least that’s how i interpreted the drawing. 
Jesse

Me too.

What I am talking about is not a scraping plane but a regular plane or chisel working in the normal direction with a slight hook down towards the flat side of the blade. Jesse’s upper drawing is about right but the lower one shows the burr pushed way too far back.It should still be cutting forward, that is to the left in his picture.

[violins88]

I wonder if this method, in the video link, would be useful. The guy, WINSTON C, real identity unknown, claims marvelous results using 1000 grit stone, then a buffing wheel. He shows a photo with drawing overlay that shows a high angle at the very edge. I doubt it works for violin making, but might work for pernambuco. I would appreciate feedback. Really.

thanks.

[LCF]

4 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Me too.

What I am talking about is not a scraping plane but a regular plane or chisel working in the normal direction with a slight hook down towards the flat side of the blade. Jesse’s upper drawing is about right but the lower one shows the burr pushed way too far back.It should still be cutting forward, that is to the left in his picture.

That is what I understood it would be. Cutting in general happens due to a combination of friction and pressure. If the burr is thin and a bit rough the pressure will be high and so will friction.

I can think of a few related examples of sharpening technique.  Tools for wood turning are often used straight off the grinder and frequently resharpened since they travel long working distances quickly. Sharpening these tools teaches you quickly about the relationships between tool surface angles and edge conditions versus wood types. Some woods are better scraped and some are better cut although in practice techniques range between those two. Ebony, blackwood and woods with high figure are usually best scraped. 

D reamers where the flat of the D is across the diameter are best sharpened by lightly grinding the flat on a stone to draw a burr or by burnishing the flat edge, likewise. 

In situations where I need to make a quick reamer + shaper pair such as the last time I cleaned up a set of 12 pegs for an oud, I make a D reamer and use that to make a peg scraper from a wooden block with something like a straight spokeshave blade set at a lower angle to the peg than a cutting blade would be but still bevel out. I sharpen that exactly as you're describing then turn the peg in the opposite direction compared to cutting. It's slower than cutting but it is reliable,  never digs in and it leaves a good gripping surface. I think it's more precise.

[LCF]

This has me thinking now, always dangerous! A low angle thumb plane with bevel up and sharpened like this should be useful for maple ...

[fiddlecollector]

Another variation worth mentioning which is useful  for things like frog making etc... is the blunt chisel sharpening technique . I have a couple of gouges sharpened this way. Its described by the plane maker Bill Carter here if you've never heard of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re_bp5Lp0To

[JacksonMaberry]

12 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Another variation worth mentioning which is useful  for things like frog making etc... is the blunt chisel sharpening technique . I have a couple of gouges sharpened this way. Its described by the plane maker Bill Carter here if you've never heard of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re_bp5Lp0To

Yes! I was taught to do that for scraping the inside of pegboxes and whatnot, works really nicely

[LCF]

2 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

Another variation worth mentioning which is useful  for things like frog making etc... is the blunt chisel sharpening technique . I have a couple of gouges sharpened this way. Its described by the plane maker Bill Carter here if you've never heard of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re_bp5Lp0To

Thanks for that link, what a treasure!

[LCF]

I have just the one low angle Stanley block plane, 12' bed angle but several 20' Stanley block planes. I wonder if the same idea will work well on one of those? Maybe a matter of playing with the exact angle of blunt sharpening?

When you compare a standard plane type having a 45' bed and 25' blade angle, bevel down, to a 20' block plane also with a 25' blade but bevel up then the angles of the top and bottom faces measured from the sole of the plane are exactly the same for each --- top 45' bottom 20'. They have the exact same shearing action. So ... if this idea works ok on a 20' block plane it could also work on a 45' plane by sharpening the flat of the blade and leaving the burr intact. Perhaps with a bit ( or a lot!)  of a micro bevel on the back? 

 

 

Correction: I had the mistaken impression that the Stanley 102 block plane was a 12' plane but when I found my original one it obviously is a 20' plane which makes my suggestion above more plausible.

Edited January 5, 2025 by LCF
Correction.

[fiddlecollector]

6 hours ago, LCF said:

I have just the one low angle Stanley block plane, 12' bed angle but several 20' Stanley block planes. I wonder if the same idea will work well on one of those? Maybe a matter of playing with the exact angle of blunt sharpening?

When you compare a standard plane type having a 45' bed and 25' blade angle, bevel down, to a 20' block plane also with a 25' blade but bevel up then the angles of the top and bottom faces measured from the sole of the plane are exactly the same for each --- top 45' bottom 20'. They have the exact same shearing action. So ... if this idea works ok on a 20' block plane it could also work on a 45' plane by sharpening the flat of the blade and leaving the burr intact. Perhaps with a bit ( or a lot!)  of a micro bevel on the back? 

 

 

Correction: I had the mistaken impression that the Stanley 102 block plane was a 12' plane but when I found my original one it obviously is a 20' plane which makes my suggestion above more plausible.

Some people use it on scraper planes ,not exactly sure how they orientate the blade  or angle. But remember the blunt sharpening doesnt use the burr as its sharpened upside down.

[LCF]

2 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

Some people use it on scraper planes ,not exactly sure how they orientate the blade  or angle. But remember the blunt sharpening doesnt use the burr as its sharpened upside down.

Good point. 

 

But as for the thoughts about blade angles sharpening  the bevel of a block plane to a burr edge for bow making,  the flat face of a regular bevel down 45' bed plane sits at approx the same angle as the bevel face of a bevel up 20' bed plane.

[fiddlecollector]

1 hour ago, LCF said:

Good point. 

 

But as for the thoughts about blade angles sharpening  the bevel of a block plane to a burr edge for bow making,  the flat face of a regular bevel down 45' bed plane sits at approx the same angle as the bevel face of a bevel up 20' bed plane.

Yes but you can always change angle to what works for you, i never bother to measure angles ,it either works or you can always easily change angle.

heres another video of someone making a small boxwood scraper ,they said they sharpened the blade using the blunt chisel technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-JC2FZbiT4

[Lisa Chamberlain]

14 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

Yes but you can always change angle to what works for you, i never bother to measure angles ,it either works or you can always easily change angle.

heres another video of someone making a small boxwood scraper ,they said they sharpened the blade using the blunt chisel technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-JC2FZbiT4

 

14 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

Yes but you can always change angle to what works for you, i never bother to measure angles ,it either works or you can always easily change angle.

heres another video of someone making a small boxwood scraper ,they said they sharpened the blade using the blunt chisel technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-JC2FZbiT4

Thank you for these links. I now have my next wine and binge watching night content. Who needs Netflix when you’ve got Bill Carter and Gakos

[LCF]

21 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

Yes but you can always change angle to what works for you, i never bother to measure angles ,it either works or you can always easily change angle.

Sure. I didn't pay much attention to the exact amount either until just now.  For the sake of the current discussion  though I was comparing the two planes both having  the canonical 25' bevel, the middle ground. It turns out that as far as the pointy end goes they are exactly the same. 

 

21 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

heres another video of someone making a small boxwood scraper ,they said they sharpened the blade using the blunt chisel technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-JC2FZbiT4

That is very squirrelly boxwood. 

 

The first time I made a bow I made a wooden block plane with a thick blade made from an old file, set vertically with a back bevel around 75' to 80', not far from square. It worked very well.

[fiddlecollector]

I just took one of my home made brass bow planes and ground the angle to around 50-60 degrees (back to front , so the burr is on the bevel side of the blade) . The plane bed is 30 degrees. The blade is a piece of cut down planer/thicknesser machine blade made from M2 HSS .

Straight from the grinder i put the blade back in giving a total cutting angle of almost 90 degrees. I tried in with the blade barely pertruding from the mouth. I used it on pernambuco , amourette and ebony . It produces a very smooth surface on all the woods and produces shavings not dust.  I will say it works as good as a very sharp and honed edge, and takes the fraction of the time to do the blade. It worked equally well going in any direction or over knots without any tearout. Also the burr plays no part in cutting as its on the top side of the blade.

[Lisa Chamberlain]

There went my Vegas manicure. That didn’t last long.  Thanks guys!  But my lil trial scraper plane will be so worth it! 

[fiddlecollector]

You have a very nice collection of thumb planes there. Love the ones with the scroll handle,who made them?

[Lisa Chamberlain]

12 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

You have a very nice collection of thumb planes there. Love the ones with the scroll handle,who made them?

https://pntc.website
Pacific Northwest Tool Collector’s Club custom made them.  It’s a fun lil group of old tool geeks 

This is my lil scraper with burr method so far. I think I might need to make the angle higher than I have it or something else?? for harder woods though.