Proper technique for a Russian bow hold?

[SibeliusVC]

I should mention that I'm relatively intermediate, around ABRSM grade 7-8. I'm much much more comfortable with a Russian bow hold than a Franco-Belgian one. My bow hold (and my hands themselves actually) looks a lot like Heifetz's, just obviously my technique is far far far far far worse lol. I've only just switched to a Russian bow hold about a week and a half ago, but my teacher doesn't seem to know much about it, and I'm struggling to find any decent resources on it as well. How can I emulate Heifetz's right arm and hand technique? The way he holds the bow, moves his hands and fingers, moves his arm/elbow, the finger position, forearm pronation, finger pronation, etc. Any help would be appreciated 

[violinnewb]

I changed from a Galamian-style bow hold to Russian (Auer) bow hold within the last year or so.

I will tell you that for me, I could not have done it properly without a teacher who was also taught the bow hold.  It is funny because on one hand, there are many nuisances required to be learned while at the same time being much less complicated than the other types of holds.

Here are a couple of things that I can suggest you work on:

1. Bow speed. 

2. Letting arm weight and gravity have more effect on volume.

3. Letting the bow do the work instead of using the fingers to manipulate effects: IE spiccato. 

Of course, there are people like Perlman and Ray Chen who have gone on record by saying they simply switched without too much thought, but I suspect that you and I are not at that technical level or have that innate musical acuity to simply switch.

I really think that you need a teacher that can teach the proper mechanics of the Russian bow hold.  That's just my opinion though.  Let's see what others say.

Good luck.

[nrlewis]

 

I started violin in the school system and only started taking private lessons around 8th grade, when my teacher taught me the Russian bowhold. I was probably doing some type of Franco-Belgian to start. I didn't think much of it, or about the right arm at all, most of my time playing in high school. As I'm continuing to advance as an active adult player in quartets and the community symphony, I'm starting to realize how much better I'd be if I actually figured out this bowing thing. I'm not terribly interested in changing my whole bowhold, I like a lot of things that it does for me or maybe I'm just an old dog that can't learn new tricks. So I got the Sevcik book and started looking at Youtube, and while that had lots of good ideas and things to learn, none of them that I discovered taught from the nuances of the Russian bowhold.

Here's where I appreciate the Google spies that know what I'm thinking. Youtube recently recommended a channel that was all about the "Golden Era" violin bowhold (just a rebranding of Russian bowhold, to take away the misnomer that there's anything inherently Russian about it). It started with this fascinating presentation on what is different about it, found below. Maybe start looking through that channel and see if it's for you? I actually just got a promotional email with a course on technique videos just a few days ago (https://goldeneraviolin.com/training). I'm in general a cheapskate and figure most things can be found on Youtube, but I haven't found anything on there yet specific to Russian bowhold with the advanced bowing techniques, so I'm considering taking the plunge and subscribing. I'll let you know if I end up doing that and how I like it.

 

[GoPractice]

Would you explain the VC in your ID? Hope it's not for ViolonCello? The violin/ viola/ cello holds are always being discussed, but... The one great concerto Sibelius did not pen. And the lesser viola suite that we yearn for.

 

Identifying and understanding ( starting to ) bow holds or patterns ( Strad various vs DG myriads ) will make for better players.

From the tallest to the smallest of us, we vary in hand size and proportions.

Having said so much, there are many pictures from above, so we see the spread, the stresses, the pinky, but the thumb is lost in the discussion. That's my contribution to this post. I have been to so many seminars and clinics and discussions, but even better violinists have a difficult time getting into specifics. I take better teachers off this list, because they have goals or ability to blend and adapt student playing. 

violinnewb's comments are important because the hold is one thing. Arm dynamics, shoulder and back play a larger part as one expands literature. Playing Haydn tight is ok. Playing Bach well in a large church is difficult unless the body is in sync, let alone Ysaye, is very difficult. For difficult passages, we might revert back to what is familiar or comfortable to our bodies and ( the audience's ) ears.

Consider the thumb position and flex or lack of.

I am a slow learner, but had a compassionate and comprehensive teacher who spent several years on both vibrato and arm/ hand mvmt. Sometimes half a lesson. I was a neurotic, stressed and kid, that needed guidance. Again, stressed for being not so bright, did not hear or feel the tonal benefits until about that third year of study. 

Like a team, muscles and their motions need to learn what it is they are doing. It's not a set position but the willingness for all players/ muscle groups to adapt for the developing play. I think it might be too much to say the thumb is the striker or the goalie. We see the fingers; please examine the thumb.

Also try to work loose, at least, at first.  And that is a whole 'nother discussion.

So go forth, bow holds, discussions and explanations. Try not to attempt a change before December juries.

[Victor Roman]

On 11/1/2024 at 5:44 PM, SibeliusVC said:

I should mention that I'm relatively intermediate, around ABRSM grade 7-8. I'm much much more comfortable with a Russian bow hold than a Franco-Belgian one. My bow hold (and my hands themselves actually) looks a lot like Heifetz's, just obviously my technique is far far far far far worse lol. I've only just switched to a Russian bow hold about a week and a half ago, but my teacher doesn't seem to know much about it, and I'm struggling to find any decent resources on it as well. How can I emulate Heifetz's right arm and hand technique? The way he holds the bow, moves his hands and fingers, moves his arm/elbow, the finger position, forearm pronation, finger pronation, etc. Any help would be appreciated 

My two cents : there is reason as to why the Russian hold went out of fashion. Overall, the F-B one is decidedly better. It produces better tone. 60 years ago there was still a lot of back and forth discussion between the Russian school and the East European one as to what is better and also the "why" of one or another. Very few reasons for the Russian hold and LOTS for the F-B one. The Russian bow hold does a few things better ( maybe ...) and A LOT of things much worse than the F-B one. JH got a fairly good result out of it ( not a GREAT one ) but it bit him as he aged and imitating JH's mannerisms might not be a good idea. He was exceptionally gifted musically, had the ideal arm length / hand size and practiced enormously. I remember how when I was very young I had a friend who could run backwards faster than me ahead. One should not understand from that running backwards is "faster".

[Victor Roman]

21 hours ago, GoPractice said:

Would you explain the VC in your ID?

Probably Sibelius Violin Concerto...

[Victor Roman]

On 11/1/2024 at 6:33 PM, violinnewb said:

Of course, there are people like Perlman and Ray Chen who have gone on record by saying they simply switched without too much thought,

UNFORTUNATELY

[Altgeiger]

You want to use a Russian bow grip, about which your teacher knows little, and the written and video information on how to use one has not helped you figure it out.  The way I see it, you have a three options:

1. Find a teacher who can teach you what you want to do
2. Hold your bow in a way your teacher can help you refine
3. Try to develop the analytical ability and self-discipline to figure it out for yourself

3 is the hardest and worst option, and you seem already to have abandoned it.  So you're left with 1 and 2.  To decide between them, I'd consider a couple questions:

1. How satisfied are you with your teacher in general?  Would you consider rolling the dice on a new one if it weren't for this?
2. What specifically makes you think a Russian bow grip will work better for you?  Could you work with your teacher on those issues specifically, without changing your entire approach to bowing?

I'm inclined to agree with Victor Roman: the Russian grip requires a whole lot of attention and effort to give the nuance and refinement of the Franco-Belgian, and there's a reason it has declined in popularity.  Add to that the difficulty of making such a huge change, and I doubt your plan is a good one — but I'm not you or your teacher.

[Victor Roman]

5 hours ago, Altgeiger said:

You want to use a Russian bow grip, about which your teacher knows little, and the written and video information on how to use one has not helped you figure it out.  The way I see it, you have a three options:

1. Find a teacher who can teach you what you want to do
2. Hold your bow in a way your teacher can help you refine
3. Try to develop the analytical ability and self-discipline to figure it out for yourself

3 is the hardest and worst option, and you seem already to have abandoned it.  So you're left with 1 and 2.  To decide between them, I'd consider a couple questions:

1. How satisfied are you with your teacher in general?  Would you consider rolling the dice on a new one if it weren't for this?
2. What specifically makes you think a Russian bow grip will work better for you?  Could you work with your teacher on those issues specifically, without changing your entire approach to bowing?

I'm inclined to agree with Victor Roman: the Russian grip requires a whole lot of attention and effort to give the nuance and refinement of the Franco-Belgian, and there's a reason it has declined in popularity.  Add to that the difficulty of making such a huge change, and I doubt your plan is a good one — but I'm not you or your teacher.

That was an excellent articulation of the issue and makes me hope you are not only performing but teaching as well.

[Victor Roman]

On 11/1/2024 at 5:44 PM, SibeliusVC said:

I should mention that I'm relatively intermediate, around ABRSM grade 7-8. I'm much much more comfortable with a Russian bow hold than a Franco-Belgian one. My bow hold (and my hands themselves actually) looks a lot like Heifetz's, just obviously my technique is far far far far far worse lol. I've only just switched to a Russian bow hold about a week and a half ago, but my teacher doesn't seem to know much about it, and I'm struggling to find any decent resources on it as well. How can I emulate Heifetz's right arm and hand technique? The way he holds the bow, moves his hands and fingers, moves his arm/elbow, the finger position, forearm pronation, finger pronation, etc. Any help would be appreciated 

 

[Spelman]

On 11/2/2024 at 2:22 PM, Victor Roman said:

Very few reasons for the Russian hold and LOTS for the F-B one. The Russian bow hold does a few things better ( maybe ...) and A LOT of things much worse than the F-B one.

Garbage

And the lady in the video you sent doesn't quite seem to get all the movements of the RBH.

[Victor Roman]

4 hours ago, Spelman said:

Garbage

And the lady in the video you sent doesn't quite seem to get all the movements of the RBH.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Personally, I think "the lady in the video" knows better. And so did one of my teachers who was for a year, Oistrakh's pupil. Here's her bio :

https://www.bushkova.com/biography

"....She graduated with highest honors (summa cum laude) from the Moscow Tchaikovsky Conservatory where she studied with Professors: Igor Bezrodny, Zoria Shikhmurzaeva, Konstantin Adjemov, and Dmitri Shebalin of the Borodin String Quartet....."

[Spelman]

15 hours ago, Victor Roman said:

You are entitled to your opinion.

Personally, I think "the lady in the video" knows better. And so did one of my teachers who was for a year, Oistrakh's pupil. Here's her bio :

https://www.bushkova.com/biography

"....She graduated with highest honors (summa cum laude) from the Moscow Tchaikovsky Conservatory where she studied with Professors: Igor Bezrodny, Zoria Shikhmurzaeva, Konstantin Adjemov, and Dmitri Shebalin of the Borodin String Quartet....."

Neat

[VicM]

22 hours ago, Spelman said:

Garbage

And the lady in the video you sent doesn't quite seem to get all the movements of the RBH.

Am curious : what is "garbage" and what is it she doesn't "quite seem to get...." ?  

[Spelman]

The lady -- not dogging her playing, I'm sure she is fantastic -- showed a hockey sticked 4th (I think she showed a picture of Auer). Yes, that happens but it's only temporary while you are fully extended, it doesn't stay in that position. It should curl back and be over the bow stick with a curve from the wrist down to the tip of the 4th.

She said that the fingers don't curl up when you approach the frog, they do.

Not necessarily related to the bow hold but she held her shoulder and arm high, out of plane with the bow. Now, maybe that's how she learned to play but I like to keep my arm and bow in plane with each other. I tell my students that their arm and their bow should "fit inside a pizza box." Helps greatly with stability and smooth motion.

I think dismissing the RBH as having "LOTS more" flaws than the FBH shows a lack of understanding of it. You can play with great power, nuance, speed, and control. It's a great bow hand.

As an aside, I notice when my students screw up the RBH, it kind of turns into a FBH.

[Altgeiger]

The video is not, in my opinion, a great representation of the technique. But even in the best case the Russian grip requires a lot more intervention to get good bow changes and achieve certain bowings than other approaches. It can work, and if a student was already doing it well I wouldn't force them to change — but I wouldn't ever recommend a student switch to a Russian grip.

[VicM]

13 hours ago, Spelman said:

The lady -- not dogging her playing, I'm sure she is fantastic -- showed a hockey sticked 4th (I think she showed a picture of Auer). Yes, that happens but it's only temporary while you are fully extended, it doesn't stay in that position. It should curl back and be over the bow stick with a curve from the wrist down to the tip of the 4th.

She said that the fingers don't curl up when you approach the frog, they do.

Not necessarily related to the bow hold but she held her shoulder and arm high, out of plane with the bow. Now, maybe that's how she learned to play but I like to keep my arm and bow in plane with each other. I tell my students that their arm and their bow should "fit inside a pizza box." Helps greatly with stability and smooth motion.

I think dismissing the RBH as having "LOTS more" flaws than the FBH shows a lack of understanding of it. You can play with great power, nuance, speed, and control. It's a great bow hand.

As an aside, I notice when my students screw up the RBH, it kind of turns into a FBH.

I see. You have your opinion. I have no problem with that. What exactly was "garbage" ?

[VicM]

10 hours ago, Altgeiger said:

The video is not, in my opinion, a great representation of the technique. But even in the best case the Russian grip requires a lot more intervention to get good bow changes and achieve certain bowings than other approaches. It can work, and if a student was already doing it well I wouldn't force them to change — but I wouldn't ever recommend a student switch to a Russian grip.

It is a reasonable representation, I think. We had years ago a good discussion on this by two members who actually knew what they are talking about. The conclusion was that the main benefit of the RBH is that it looks exceptionally elegant. I suppose a good musician with good musical intention will make it work just fine but I see many situations where one will have to fight it at lest a bit. Not worth the trouble. At least the school I am coming from ( East European, Romanian ) had some exaggerated interpretations of the F/B hold in the sense of a great insistence on wrist  flexibility and action. Something that after I received a good explanation I see now as a useless nonsense. ( That is MY opinion I do not impose on others ). 

To switch mid way through one's studies is a grave mistake. Many reasons I will not discuss - too much to type. That Perlman and Chen switched means nothing and to my pretty good ear, helped nothing. Neither of the two is a "Tone God". Quite the contrary. 

[violinnewb]

4 hours ago, VicM said:

To switch mid way through one's studies is a grave mistake. Many reasons I will not discuss - too much to type. That Perlman and Chen switched means nothing and to my pretty good ear, helped nothing. Neither of the two is a "Tone God". Quite the contrary. 

Ah, but who says Ray Chen or Perlman switched bow holds for yours, or anyone else's ear?  They may have done so for their own personal reasons.  For me, its not about how I feel about your bow hold.  Its about what works best for me.  When someone like the OP asks a question about FB or Russian bow hold, It not for me to say which is better. I can only offer my experience.  My experience is not to change something so fundamental to violin playing without proper training.  

I brought up Chen and Perlman because there is video evidence of them saying they simply switched.  It worked for them, but most of us are not them.  That was my point.

[Victor Roman]

2 hours ago, violinnewb said:

Ah, but who says Ray Chen or Perlman switched bow holds for yours, or anyone else's ear?  They may have done so for their own personal reasons.  For me, its not about how I feel about your bow hold.  Its about what works best for me.  When someone like the OP asks a question about FB or Russian bow hold, It not for me to say which is better. I can only offer my experience.  My experience is not to change something so fundamental to violin playing without proper training.  

I brought up Chen and Perlman because there is video evidence of them saying they simply switched.  It worked for them, but most of us are not them.  That was my point.

Ah, but who says Ray Chen or Perlman switched bow holds for yours, or anyone else's ear?  

Players of that level of skill and notoriety ALWAYS do something for someone else's ear even if their ear / convenience etc is an intermediary.

They may have done so for their own personal reasons.  

Divorce ? Gambling debts ? Car accident ?  

For me, its not about how I feel about your bow hold.  Its about what works best for me.  

But how do you know what works best for you ?? If all I can play is Twinkle, Twinkle then most anything will work best for me. But when I eventually get to playing very sophisticated pieces, Brahms concerto, late quartets etc AND I now compare my lame result with the top shelves players, I discover that the old and tired "what works for me" does not work anymore. Hope you get the idea. You need to have covered some of the serious repertoire in real life situations and with proper critique directed at you in order to have some idea of what works best for you. 

When someone like the OP asks a question about FB or Russian bow hold, It not for me to say which is better. I can only offer my experience.  

In your case, that may be. Other people might have trained many others and might have observed many, many colleagues as they went together through around 16-18 years of proper training. Your "experience" may be so little as to be irrelevant. 

My experience is not to change something so fundamental to violin playing without proper training.  

I agree 100% - sterling idea. Question : how large is your "experience" in this case ? 

I brought up Chen and Perlman because there is video evidence of them saying they simply switched. 

I would not believe for one second that "they simply switched". Players have a habit of claiming they practice just a little bit when they find some time.... The reality is completely different.

 It worked for them, but most of us are not them.  That was my point.

What exactly "worked" for them ?? Specifically, which aspect of their tone got better ???????????????? Was it the quietness or the thinness ? Something else ?

[violinsRus]

Wow you guys are going around in circles, get a grip! Oops, I mean a bow hold... 

[David Rosales]

I think bow holds are like golf swings. There are a few grips and movements that all the experts agree are "necessary" to hit the ball far or accurately and then grandpa comes along and whacks it with the weirdest, ugliest form, breaking all the rules, and does just fine. Just do what works for you.

[VicM]

On 11/11/2024 at 5:36 PM, violinnewb said:

Ah, but who says Ray Chen or Perlman switched bow holds for yours, or anyone else's ear?  They may have done so for their own personal reasons.  For me, its not about how I feel about your bow hold.  Its about what works best for me.  When someone like the OP asks a question about FB or Russian bow hold, It not for me to say which is better. I can only offer my experience.  My experience is not to change something so fundamental to violin playing without proper training.  

I brought up Chen and Perlman because there is video evidence of them saying they simply switched.  It worked for them, but most of us are not them.  That was my point.

I do not understand what you mean by "it worked for them". To my ear , it did not. And by the way, I think neither you nor I have any experience worth mentioning in changing bow grips. And ( !) I started on violin, moved to viola, moved to cello and then moved to d/bass. And piano secondary all that time. About 14 years from kindergarten to graduating the Institute. Now, am back to cello. 

[Victor Roman]

The point learners of any level should keep in mind is that "it works for me" NOW may not work at all LATER. There is a reason as to why techniques tend to standardize certain way. So that they work in most situation through the entire repertoire.

[violinnewb]

22 hours ago, VicM said:

I do not understand what you mean by "it worked for them". To my ear , it did not. And by the way, I think neither you nor I have any experience worth mentioning in changing bow grips. And ( !) I started on violin, moved to viola, moved to cello and then moved to d/bass. And piano secondary all that time. About 14 years from kindergarten to graduating the Institute. Now, am back to cello. 

I do not profess to know whether you are qualified to speak on any subject.  In fact, it means very little to me whether you are Ray Chen or Hilary Hahn or a beginner.  You have just as much freedom to speak on these subjects as does anyone else.  That being said, of course the less one knows, and the more one professes to know, the more open they will become to criticism.  

In know that for me, and I try to qualify that statement often, I know that I could not change a fundamental technique without proper guidance.  Period.  So, that experience is enough for me to suggest to the OP that simply changing technique without such guidance may present challenges.  

I do not go on to point out anyone's lack of experience or knowledge to the point of publicly shaming or lessening their opinion.  I think that in the modern age of social media and widely used medium of communication on internet forums, it would be beneficial to approach these types of questions in a manner that is more positive, or at least differing perspective, than entering into pissing matches.