Hidden Information on Old Instruments

[Randall The Restorer]

I just finished cleaning a very dirty attic-find 1/2 size violin purchased in the early 1900s. 
Based on my readings here and elsewhere, it is professionally made and finished of beautiful tight-grain spruce and curly maple. 
There is no label inside or any marks on the outside to indicate date or place or maker. The violin was found without fingerboard or fittings.

However, on the the fingerboard surface of the neck I discovered the numbers “1911” carved into the wood with a knife, a sharp round leather punch cut the circle of the digit 9. There were some other cryptic knife-cut symbols on the same surface. 
The marks were obscured by glue residue and dirt but were prominent after cleaning with enzymatic cleaner (saliva), warm water, and alcohol.

Lesson Learned: Identifying marks may be hiding Underneath easily or routinely removed parts of an obscure instrument (or any other manufactured artifact).

I’ll post photos next week.

I hope someone finds this useful.

Sincerely,

Randy O’Malley 

[Chris Anderson, PhD]

Randy,

I do enjoy utilizing 'enzymatic cleaner'.  I've heard this usage more than once on this forum. 

Waiting eagerly for the photos.... I love a good mystery. 

Do you ever utilize compressed air on the interior of the violin to see if similar marks might be present? (pressure limited with an oil filter..)

-Chris

[Mark Norfleet]

21 minutes ago, Chris Anderson, PhD said:

Do you ever utilize compressed air on the interior of the violin to see if similar marks might be present? (pressure limited with an oil filter..)

Limiting the pressure, or rate of flow, dramatically reduces the amount of information which can be gathered during this experiment.

[David Burgess]

16 minutes ago, Mark Norfleet said:

Limiting the pressure, or rate of flow, dramatically reduces the amount of information which can be gathered during this experiment.

Any maker who hasn't tested the burst pressure of their instruments is cutting corners.

[jacobsaunders]

On 10/30/2024 at 6:04 PM, Randall The Restorer said:

cleaning with enzymatic cleaner

sounds like you are going to sell it in bottles soon

[David Burgess]

On 10/30/2024 at 1:04 PM, Randall The Restorer said:

The marks were obscured by glue residue and dirt but were prominent after cleaning with enzymatic cleaner (saliva), warm water, and alcohol.

I have tried cleaning the faces of random people at the mall with all three. The "enzymatic cleaner" got the most violent reaction upon initial application. Warm water and alcohol were better tolerated, depending on exactly where on the face, and in what quantities they were applied.

Direct contact application of the enzymatic cleaner upon the boobal region of young female adults, by infants, was well tolerated, but precipitously decreased as these infants reached 40-110 years of age, whereupon they became redefined as dirty old perverts, despite no differences in technique.

[Randall The Restorer]

2 hours ago, Chris Anderson, PhD said:

Randy,

I do enjoy utilizing 'enzymatic cleaner'.  I've heard this usage more than once on this forum. 

Waiting eagerly for the photos.... I love a good mystery. 

Do you ever utilize compressed air on the interior of the violin to see if similar marks might be present? (pressure limited with an oil filter..)

-Chris

Compressed Air:

Not yet, but I will. My airbrush and compressor I use to paint scale models meets your description.

 

[Randall The Restorer]

12 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

sounds like you are going to sell it in bottles soon

Absotively. Bottles which previously held Canadian Maple Syrup - like aging wine in old whisky bottles.

Jacob, will you be sharing photos or stories under my post about Stringed Instruments At War? I suspect you and your Dad would have quite a few - from both sides of No Man’s Land.

Your irreverent sense of humour will help take the edge off of the more painful memories.

Gruss Gott and Servus.

Yours truly,

Randy O’Malley

PS 

There were more Irishmen than Englishmen in the WW2 RAF and in Nelson’s Navy. At least 2% (two percent) were always sober and silent.

Thank a Canadian fighter pilot who fought and died in the skies over the UK during WW2.          He probably saved the lives of people you love.

[Randall The Restorer]

13 hours ago, Chris Anderson, PhD said:

Randy,

I do enjoy utilizing 'enzymatic cleaner'.  I've heard this usage more than once on this forum. 

Waiting eagerly for the photos.... I love a good mystery. 

Do you ever utilize compressed air on the interior of the violin to see if similar marks might be present? (pressure limited with an oil filter..)

-Chris

I have considered training a small hungry rodent - with a taste for rosin and dust mites- and fitted with lights and camera, and diaper, to go in through the f- holes. A luthiers version of Gambian Pouch Rat Earthquake Search And Rescue.

I am only half joking. 

Blessings,

Randy

[Brad Dorsey]

3 hours ago, Chris Anderson, PhD said:

…compressed air on the interior of the violin…

Be very careful if you try this.  You could blow a label to bits.

[Chris Anderson, PhD]

4 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Be very careful if you try this.  You could blow a label to bits.

Agreed- in this case, the violin appears to have no label.   Hence the pressure limitation.  I use 10 - 20 psi to blow off sawdust while precision routing with a dremel tool (jig from StewMac).  The actual exit velocity depends upon the end orifice dimension relative to the pressure - so there is no hard/fast rule for PSI.  But I have a local regulator near the hose end to make sure the output isn't set too high.   Its no more harm than blowing shavings off whilst carving. If the shavings hitting me are uncomfortable, then the pressure is too high and I turn it down.  

-Chris 

[FiddleDoug]

3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Any maker who hasn't tested the burst pressure of their instruments is cutting corners.

Yes. I would close the box before cutting the f holes. A tire valve in the endpin hole, and a 120 psi compressor should do it.

[Ron1]

I have an old Norwegian box that has this type of "knife cut" inscription on the inside of the lid, which has allowed me to determine the probable maker of the box from the initials & date (1830).  It was a wedding gift from an Uncle of my great-great-grandmother when she was married in 1830.

[Randall The Restorer]

7 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

Yes. I would close the box before cutting the f holes. A tire valve in the endpin hole, and a 120 psi compressor should do it.

Schrader or Presta valve? What's that in kilopsacals?

As an inexperienced, amatuer builder and restorer, but a very experienced human being,  I never know If you guys are joking or not when you make these comments - even with the emojis. It reminds me of being sent as a child for a left-handed hammer and right-handed nails by older brothers. 

Seriously now folks - At least one laboratory science-minded contributor to this forum might actually inflate a closed VSO or GSO in order to determine the correlation between hide glue gram strength and burst pressure. I am not naming names, but he'll probably conduct the test at 1200 Hours . (I am not naming names). 

Stay safe and wear eye protection.

Sincerely,

Randy 

[Clara kim]

Ron, do you remember that you mentioned about my cello before? I would like to hear your opinion more detail.