Going to a fancy violin shop to buy a violin

[mimi T]

I’ve commissioned a violin to be made in Italy. I’m going in a week to try it and hopefully buy it.

 Italian is my second language and I’m learning the Italian words for parts of the violin!

 I’m always nervous about playing in front of people, I’m just an amateur, and this will be the most expensive violin I have ever purchased.

sometimes I have gone into a violin shop and cannot think of a single thing to play, besides scales. Should I approach it like a performance, practice some tunes?
 

I’d love to hear some helpful hints or suggestions that will make it easier.

i feel like I already failed a test because I said I liked metal strings to a guy who had suggested pirastro gold to me which I was not familiar with. I meant to say, I preferred synthetic, but the damage is done.

 Thank you, be kind

Edited October 22 by mimi T

[jacobsaunders]

Speaking as a violin maker, who has to listen to people trying violins out, I can assure you that the repertoire that people use to that purpose is unbelievably limited. Years ago I started to wonder if I should strangle the next person who tried out with the bloody Saint-Saens violin concerto (the third I think) and decided to give a free rosin to the first person who tried the violin out with the violin solo “Erbarme dich” from the Matthew Passion. It took about twenty years to happen, and the girl who won the free rosin was astonished (and bought the bow!)

[Zeissica]

Perhaps they have a private room or area where you can play without anyone hearing you directly?

I recommend playing material you are most familiar with, that covers the widest range your are comfortable playing. Play something with legato passages, and something with detache, staccato, and maybe even spiccato. Loud and soft material. The idea is to figure out if the violin suits you now and for the future. I don't think it has to be "concert ready material" and no reason to be nervous, they've heard it all from concert soloists to beginners. It is also an advantage if you can hear the violin being played, even though another player will have a different style & skills. Sometimes a big weakness in an instrument is revealed from across the room - something like "the g string sounds strong under the hear but doesn't carry" or other possible balance issues, etc. Or, hearing it from across the room may make you fall in love with it even more. 

If you are feeling a bit cheeky, you might ask to see, play on, and have someone else play other instruments they have that are similarly priced, for comparison. If you've commissioned this instrument, do you have the option to not buy it? Would you lose a deposit, for instance?

[deans]

Make sure you include music you struggle with, as well as your best material, and get as much time with the instrument as possible. 

[mimi T]

2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Speaking as a violin maker, who has to listen to people trying violins out, I can assure you that the repertoire that people use to that purpose is unbelievably limited. Years ago I started to wonder if I should strangle the next person who tried out with the bloody Saint-Saens violin concerto (the third I think) and decided to give a free rosin to the first person who tried the violin out with the violin solo “Erbarme dich” from the Matthew Passion. It took about twenty years to happen, and the girl who won the free rosin was astonished (and bought the bow!)

I love your story.  There's no danger of me playing Saint-Saens...

[Shelbow]

Completely agree, when someone plays something different from the usual repertoire it really is quite magical for the ears.

[Navyasw02]

When I bought mine 8 years ago I mostly played the intro passage of kreisler praeludium to get a sense of how it sounded at various places in the tonal register and positions. If I'm playing around in shops now I'd probably try Brahms sonata 3 2nd movement to get a feel for the high positions of the g string. I'd probably also try the Bruch concerto 2nd movement around the middle where the bar starts with the b flat on the E string to see if I get get a nice high register quality and then transition to the portion on the g string from there.

[violinnewb]

You are not there to play for the luthier or staff.

Playing open strings and scales are a wonderful way to see what the violin sounds like.  Nothing wrong with that.

When I go, I play certain sections of pieces depending upon the instrument.  In general, this is my standard:

1. Open strings and scales for general tone and projection.

2. Opening passage of the Bruch, slow passage of the Bruch, string crossing section of the Bruch - for tone, projection, and ease of playing under my fingers.

3. Slow sections of the Mendelssohn, Cadenza of the Mendelssohn - for tone on the A and D strings especially.

4. Rondo by Mozart/Kreisler, to look for responsiveness in fast passages.

Depending upon your level of playing, you can switch these pieces out.  You don't have to play multiple pieces at all.  You can stick with one.  Just make sure you are listening for tonal variety across all 4 strings, projection, complexity of sounds, and playability.

Again, this is NOT a recital opportunity.  You are not there to impress anyone or play for others.  You are there to test the limits of the instrument for yourself, test your limits as to whether the instrument would be too difficult for you to break in or learn to figure out, and to find YOUR next instrument, not something you think others will like.

Lastly, your comment about "metal strings"....you should not be expected to know all terminology, anatomy of a violin, or anything else technical and related to the instrument.  Don't sweat it if you misstate something to a luthier.  Speak in plain terms.  For example, "I like how dark it sounds," "I don't like how it sound tinny," "the violin is difficult for me to play in third position."  You are there to learn and a good shop owner, luthier, staff, should be willing to provide you with the best experience.

[mimi T]

do you all think it would offend the luthier if i mention that i'm going to get wittner planetary pegs? (i have arthritis in my hands which makes peg turning painful)

@violinnewb thank you. The fact that you do have clear choices for what you might play is very useful to me.

and thanks for your words about strings. Of course I'm also dealing with a language barrier, no matter how hard i am working, i will never speak Italian like a native.

@zeissica, i will ask for  some private space and i will ask ahead of time if someone else will be there to play the instrument for me, thank you

 

[Navyasw02]

If a luthier gets offended by what you want to do with YOUR violin, find a different luthier.

To answer your question though, geared pegs are fantastic. Just make sure you get the little winding tool to help when it's time to change strings 

[Ish-bosheth]

On 10/21/2024 at 7:03 PM, mimi T said:

...sometimes I have gone into a violin shop and cannot think of a single thing to play, besides scales. Should I approach it like a performance, practice some tunes?...

If you can convince yourself to play in public, pieces other than scales are probably a good idea. Ideally, a group of pieces that hits a wide range of styles and techniques, all the strings, and multiple positions. See what the violin can do. (If it's a new instrument, the sound may open up as you play it.) If you're feeling really brave, you could bring a musically-knowledgeable friend and get a second opinion on the sound. Preferably a close friend (one who won't mind being there for a while- if you're traveling to another country to get a violin, you probably don't want a bored friend asking how much longer you'll take to pick one).

Here is an article by Barbara Barber (of Robertson & Sons Violin Shop) on choosing an instrument.

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=7efd87ca8401896b32b324a62f1a1589c9ca9b20b6721d29035dca807458ad8cJmltdHM9MTcyOTY0MTYwMA&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=4&fclid=24d66c85-ce39-61e0-2298-63f4cf0460a6&psq=robertsons+%26+sons+violin+shop+choosing+a+violin&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cucm9iZXJ0c29udmlvbGlucy5jb20vaW5kZXgucGhwP3BhZ2U9Y2hvb3NpbmctYW4taW5zdHJ1bWVudA&ntb=1

[duane88]

I try to get customers to play scales in the shop, and only scales. By the time you've played that same piece on each instrument, by the third one you don't remember what the first one sounded like. Play music at home.

 

Really, in the US, I believe, the Ashoken Farwell has reached the same level of disdain, in music stores, as Stairway to Heaven in guitar shops. 

Just play. You aren't the worst violinist that they have had in their shop.

[GoPractice]

This will be wordy. The suggestions might help?

Well made instruments are complicated. The initial playing of new, well made instruments might be a bit difficult. Not all but quite a few...

New instruments will often sound significantly different, compared to later in their lives. First impressions are ever important, but unless you've played many, it can often be a surprise. Too responsive, non- responsive, scratchy, no ring...

Just activating sound might be difficult because it is both new and unfamiliar. Upper half of the bow is friendly, hopefully bringing out the brilliance and sweetness and gentle warmth of the instrument on the upper and lower strings. Lower half and arm weight also take time to settle in. Double stops help determine string locations as they might be different with a different chinrest. It is also helpful to bring/ take your shoulder rest if you want to settle in.

I am well aware of my fuller up and down strokes. I pair them in a sequence. Usually a comfortable up and down of 16 strokes on single strings whatever the combination can be a musical phrase. My brother is a percussionist and pounding on the kitchen counter in anger can be musical. Ups and downs can sound way different. The ups easier and more forgiving, the downstroke loading a new post set up might be a bit more hesitant and complex.

I play a minimum of about 128 strokes on open strings. I know this because I can sort of better understand the different combinations of strings and 8 variations seems like the minimum. Being known for some aggressive playing, I actually want to know how much bow movement take the open string to activate. Up bows best. Bow speed tests follow. Up bows are great because as bow speed increases, it is easier to bring the right hand to the instrument applying weight as the bow speed increases.

The next step before approaching scales is to the 3rd position octaves, meaning the first finger placement will match the lower octave string. If there is resonance, one might here it here in this position. 64 strokes matching, fine- tuning the left hand. The 2nd finger will play the note adjacent on the upper string side. Fine tune the spacing between the fingers, listen for the tonal differences between the identical pitches across the strings and vary up and down strokes. If one feels comfortable enough vibrato, add. Another 128 strokes.

In addition to prepping one's ears, you are getting to know the instrument, how it feels and responds and the instrument will try to respond the best it can. It is mutually beneficial. A mindful maker or shop owner will listen and might offer suggestions or make adjustments. Totally normal. I imagine Maestro Manfio doing this all the time.

Hopefully in this time, the nervousness is gone. When I play expensive instruments, I try to do the above for about 30 minutes. If the shop is busy, I leave with the instrument and do it elsewhere. And I try to bring my best understanding of how it is being played. I do not expect my students to do this, but developing this mindfulness is also important. 

For super touchy students, I ask them to locate the 3rd finger ( in first position ) that familiar octave note and reactivate with the bow. Maybe locate that familiar sound or resonance? The thumb will need to be resettled, but the the player just needs to get comfortable. Relax both hands. Broad strokes, good posture and realign the body mvmt. Then add the 2nd finger, watch the finger shapes and establish the pitch relationships with the 3rd finger. Usually a half step for most, the 7th or leading tone into G- D- A- major scales. Listen to the voice of each finger on the string.

Then roll to down and up to the 1st finger, occasionally playing the open string at the bottom. This settles many players into the width and scale length of the instrument as there are children who also scale up a size, and the width of the neck. Hand shape and the left elbow placement might matter and chinrest comfort combination with shoulder rest gets in the way of some at this point in playing. The process can be exhausting.

If the instrument makes it to this point, at least the player has a bit of a knowledge to start warming in to making an assessment.

But with new instruments, play factors make a big difference and the shop or the maker should be there to help. I was often puzzled when some would get an instrument and start modifying it as soon as they got back to town. In some instances, it made sense. But changes, in my opinion, should be gradual as even string sets can change how an instrument sounds or reacts. My newer instruments have taken years to how they sound now. Usually, fuller and more complex. This might be unusual, but because the balance has changed a bit in some of my instruments, they might be a little softer overall, which is reasonable. One is quieter, but the tonal colour projects better.

Good luck. I hope this is not overwhelming. I try not to have expectations. In just starting to get ( good ) sound gently, every instrument will hesitate. Focusing a bit on the activation tends to get one layer of nervousness out of the way. And easing in with up bows is reasonable. If a bow does not work well in one's hands, ask for another.

[mimi T]

1 hour ago, duane88 said:

I try to get customers to play scales in the shop, and only scales. By the time you've played that same piece on each instrument, by the third one you don't remember what the first one sounded like. Play music at home.

 

Really, in the US, I believe, the Ashoken Farwell has reached the same level of disdain, in music stores, as Stairway to Heaven in guitar shops. 

Just play. You aren't the worst violinist that they have had in their shop.

thank you Duane.  that's funny about Askokan.  I probably played that in your very shop about 4 years ago! That was the only tune i could dredge up at that time.

and thank you for the reminder.

[MANFIO]

On 10/22/2024 at 11:02 AM, jacobsaunders said:

Speaking as a violin maker, who has to listen to people trying violins out, I can assure you that the repertoire that people use to that purpose is unbelievably limited. Years ago I started to wonder if I should strangle the next person who tried out with the bloody Saint-Saens violin concerto (the third I think) and decided to give a free rosin to the first person who tried the violin out with the violin solo “Erbarme dich” from the Matthew Passion. It took about twenty years to happen, and the girl who won the free rosin was astonished (and bought the bow!)

Ha ha!!!! the same for violists! Arpeggione sonata, Bach suites, Bartok concerto, Stamitz, Hoffmeister. Very rarely that crazy viola solo up in the C string of Shostakovich's #8 string Quartet.

 

[MANFIO]

We makers make instruments for professional players, amateurs, students, it is your moment. I would not play with a score, I would concentrate in the instrument.

 

[MANFIO]

I wrote this article about choosing a good viola, most things can be applied to other instruments too.

CHOOSING A GOOD VIOLA

 

High level viola technique makes sense only on a fine instrument. With a good viola, you will not need to work so hard to make music. During an audition, you and your viola will be evaluated, so, the sooner you partner up with a good instrument, the better.

 

Avoid monochrome-sounding instruments. With a good viola you can work with the bow to create various colors, passion and drama. And you can only achieve that through a generous dynamic range that allows you to play from ppp to fff. With most violas you may change your bowing speed and pressure yet almost nothing happens, which is not desirable and can be frustrating.

 

A good test is to draw your bow from the end of the fingerboard towards the bridge while increasing bow pressure. With a fine instrument, there will be a huge change in the color of sound and volume. The viola must not choke when you play fff near the bridge.

 

Avoid hollow, unfocused sound. The sound must have a clear core to project in the concert hall. If the sound is hollow it will not project well and when playing quick passages, the notes should be heard clearly. The sound must be clean and ring without fuzz when notes are played in tune.

 

Clarity is closely linked to response; you will only have clarity if the response is very quick. The sound must start the instant the bow touches the string, otherwise the notes will mix in quick passages.

 

A fine viola will ring and ring. Check all harmonics you can. Without a lively sound the viola will be uninteresting from beginning to end.

 

Check the instrument in the upper regions of the C and G strings. You may not be using the 7th positions of the C string now, but as you start studying more difficult pieces, you will have to do that. Only fine violas will sound good in high positions of the C string. In general, there will be many wolves (aka false notes) there.

 

Playing comfort is not only related to the size of the viola. Some things like string length, upper bouts width, rib height, weight, feeling "under the chin", neck thickness and width will also have a huge influence on playing comfort. 

 

Forget the idea that “the bigger, the better”. Get a viola that is comfortable to play and will not cause you physical problems in the future.

[Just Sayin’]

IMHO one should always bring along the instrument regularly used and play the same short legato passage starting on a open G (or C) on each instrument which may include a shift or two. The tonal differences should then be immediately and readily apparent.

 

[MANFIO]

I would also start with the maker's string choice, in general we know the string type that work better with the instruments we make. Strings are a very important variable.

[Sorgo]

8 hours ago, MANFIO said:

Ha ha!!!! the same for violists! Arpeggione sonata, Bach suites, Bartok concerto, Stamitz, Hoffmeister. Very rarely that crazy viola solo up in the C string of Shostakovich's #8 string Quartet.

 

No Paganini Sonata per la grand viola? I'm saddened.

[MANFIO]

2 hours ago, Sorgo said:

No Paganini Sonata per la grand viola? I'm saddened.

Very rarely "La Campanella".

 

[Zeissica]

7 hours ago, Sorgo said:

No Paganini Sonata per la grand viola? I'm saddened.

Lol - that was indeed one of the "test" pieces (theme & variations movement) I used back when I was working that piece up to performance - decades ago! Now it is just as Claudio says - Bach, maybe a bit of Teleman, and then "made up" scalar, melodic, and spiccato stuff that tests for tone & articulation. Maybe a few orchestra excerpts thrown in. 

[violinnewb]

15 hours ago, Just Sayin’ said:

IMHO one should always bring along the instrument regularly used and play the same short legato passage starting on a open G (or C) on each instrument which may include a shift or two. The tonal differences should then be immediately and readily apparent.

 

That is really good, really sound advice!

On the same note, your violin should be with you at all times anyways. 

[MANFIO]

On 10/25/2024 at 12:40 PM, Zeissica said:

Lol - that was indeed one of the "test" pieces (theme & variations movement) I used back when I was working that piece up to performance - decades ago! Now it is just as Claudio says - Bach, maybe a bit of Teleman, and then "made up" scalar, melodic, and spiccato stuff that tests for tone & articulation. Maybe a few orchestra excerpts thrown in. 

Pinchas Zukerman likes to test a viola playing fff in very high positions of the C string. Michael Tree liked scales in ppp. 

[reedman]

Always try to have a second set of ears to listen. Instruments sound VERY different under the ear than 20' away. And one item that has always stuck with me that I heard from a very respected luthier, and I think it applies to all players--string, wind, or brass. The common tendency for a player is to like an instrument that sounds like what they are already playing. So stay open to a different kind of sound from what you have been hearing.