New versus old violins under $30k

[Victor Roman]

4 minutes ago, Zeissica said:

I think Geoffry N spells it out nicely, and I agree with his outline. In my search for a "really good violin" a few years back, my budget was 20K (roughly equivalent to 30K today) and I tried dozens of instruments, new and old. The search ended up narrowed down to 2 fiddles, both from living makers, one perhaps 20~25 years old, and one that was just a few years old. I ended up with the newer one that was slightly over my budgeted amount, and I couldn't be happier with it. It was nice to be able to check in with the maker himself for authenticity, too. I didn't buy it as an investment, but it has also been great to see the prices on his instruments rising since I bought mine. 

Nice to hear you have chosen a "new" violin and are still happy with it !

[GeorgeH]

11 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

and one sounds good and the other bad

That is subjective. It never ceases to surprise me the tones of some violins that people like.

Does a soundpost adjustment that (subjectively) improves the tone of a violin instantly make that violin's price go up? New strings? A different bow?

A pricing decision is largely based on objective criteria. A buying decision is largely based on subjective criteria.

[Victor Roman]

2 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

That is subjective. It never ceases to surprise me the tones of some violins that people like.

Does a soundpost adjustment that (subjectively) improves the tone of a violin instantly make that violin's price go up? New strings? A different bow?

A pricing decision is largely based on objective criteria. A buying decision is largely based on subjective criteria.

That is subjective.

Why ? Because it is decided through "senses" ???    When it comes to reasonably small variations, yes it might be subjective. When it comes to a number of other aspects of the tone, it's plain objective and professionals know.

It never ceases to surprise me the tones of some violins that people like.

"People" is vague. Professionals who have their playing directly exposed to the public like similar things. At the back of the seconds doesn't matter which plank you are sawing. 

Does a soundpost adjustment that (subjectively) improves the tone of a violin instantly make that violin's price go up? New strings? A different bow?

Of course. That's why car dealers change plugs, filters, pump tires etc....

A pricing decision is largely based on objective criteria. A buying decision is largely based on subjective criteria.

But I am not talking "largely based". I do not disagree when it comes to "largely based". Besides, a pricing decision, provided the dealer is not a complete moron, must also take into account the need to keep the stock moving. Also, one's "objective criteria" might be another's "subjective criteria". 

[martin swan]

Well, a violin that a dealer can’t sell because it sounds like a tennis racket wrapped in a dumpling has, according to your method, a theoretical value of zero, since it is unsaleable.

Yet strangely, put the same violin into auction and its value increases massively, driven by the excitement of a single opportunity and the sense of competition. Yet it still sounds like a tennis racket wrapped in a dumpling.

I’m not sure how useful this debate is since all the points of view are in some sense true … and not true

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Victor Roman said:

Professionals who have their playing directly exposed to the public like similar things.

I'm still waiting for a definition of "professionals". Even street musicians are directly exposed to the public.

Either it's just the most vague and subjective one can tell, lumping together all styles and traditions, who might like very different instruments. Or excluding anybody who wasn't trained at a certain time period (1950s? 60s?) in a particular regional context.

 

[Victor Roman]

33 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Well, a violin that a dealer can’t sell because it sounds like a tennis racket wrapped in a dumpling has, according to your method, a theoretical value of zero, since it is unsaleable.

Yet strangely, put the same violin into auction and its value increases massively, driven by the excitement of a single opportunity and the sense of competition. Yet it still sounds like a tennis racket wrapped in a dumpling.

I’m not sure how useful this debate is since all the points of view are in some sense true … and not true

Well, a violin that a dealer can’t sell because it sounds like a tennis racket wrapped in a dumpling has, according to your method, a theoretical value of zero, since it is unsaleable.

I surely hope I did not write that because I definitely do not mean it. Your tennis raquet does not have a theoretical value of zero and is not unsaleable. It does however have a lower value than the good sounding equivalent. 

Yet strangely, put the same violin into auction and its value increases massively, driven by the excitement of a single opportunity and the sense of competition. Yet it still sounds like a tennis racket wrapped in a dumpling.

Could be but that is not what I am talking about.

I’m not sure how useful this debate is since all the points of view are in some sense true … and not true.

What I found baffling a few weeks ago was that tone does not factor in the pricing. I thought people might ask or be offered a discount for an instrument tonally not quite there. I had some private communication with former colleagues and they all assured me that tone is a factor in price and discounts are common. 

[jacobsaunders]

54 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I'm still waiting for a definition of "professionals".

 

I recently watched/listened to Kavakos (who is surely one of the foremost professionals) play the Tchaikovsky violin concerto. It was a really thrilling performance, not least because he was wearing spectacles. It is a decidedly athletic violin concerto, and it was absolutely gripping, watching if his glasses were going to fall off his nose. By the end, it was not only a miracle that his glasses were still on his nose, but also impressive that he could even still stand up. I didn’t have the impression that it mattered much if the violin sounded beautiful or not, rather he needed one that he could thrash the shit out of, without it making any squeaky noises

[martin swan]

Victor Roman we are going round in circles … nicely 

I just can’t envisage a scenario where a buyer would demand a discount on account of poor sound.

 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

On 10/12/2024 at 11:43 PM, Shadow_ said:

Hi Maestros,

For a budget under $30k, would you opt for a well-crafted new violin by a modern maker or a well-preserved older violin in the same price range? I know that top-tier antique violins can be almost unbeatable, but their prices can skyrocket - hence the $30k limit, which I believe covers 95% of modern violins and might also be possible to secure a high-quality old violin from a second- or third-tier maker.

I heard that compared to these 2nd or 3rd-tier makers from centuries past, today's top modern luthiers benefit from better acoustic knowledge, more systematic training, and more precise tools. Is that true? Additionally, how much does the "magic" of time truly affect the sound of a violin?

Whatever your price range is, what you're "buying" by setting one is choice. In my opinion, contemporary fiddles in the range you set have an advantage, as they are relatively plentiful, you are paying for reputation, but not for antique value.  That said, I see no reason not to try older instruments in that range while you are at it. 

[Victor Roman]

11 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Victor Roman we are going round in circles … nicely 

I just can’t envisage a scenario where a buyer would demand a discount on account of poor sound.

 

Not on "poor sound" but on say, "somehow less than what I was hoping for". 

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Yet strangely, put the same violin into auction and its value increases massively, driven by the excitement of a single opportunity and the sense of competition. Yet it still sounds like a tennis racket wrapped in a dumpling.

I don't have any significant experience with auctions, but will affirm that even the chittiest-sounding violin will find an enthusiastic buyer, given enough time and the right set of circumstances.

[martin swan]

20 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

Not on "poor sound" but on say, "somehow less than what I was hoping for". 

I’ve never had that experience.

Everyone I have ever sold a fiddle to was sure they had found the best sounding instrument they could afford.

Sometimes I wouldn’t have chosen the same instrument from the same selection, but i never met a customer who would cut corners with their sound preference.

If someone did ask for a discount because they were disappointed with the sound I would get them out of the shop politely but rapidly.

[GeorgeH]

4 hours ago, Victor Roman said:

Why ? Because it is decided through "senses" ???    When it comes to reasonably small variations, yes it might be subjective. When it comes to a number of other aspects of the tone, it's plain objective and professionals know.

Tone quality is subjective because it is not quantifiable and quality is evaluated solely on personal preferences. When it comes to tone, at the same price point, different violinists will choose different violins according to their individual tone quality preferences.

The seller sets the price based on objective criteria. The buyer decides to purchase at a given price (or not) based on their subjective preferences.

[Victor Roman]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

I recently watched/listened to Kavakos (who is surely one of the foremost professionals) play the Tchaikovsky violin concerto. It was a really thrilling performance, not least because he was wearing spectacles. It is a decidedly athletic violin concerto, and it was absolutely gripping, watching if his glasses were going to fall off his nose. By the end, it was not only a miracle that his glasses were still on his nose, but also impressive that he could even still stand up. I didn’t have the impression that it mattered much if the violin sounded beautiful or not, rather he needed one that he could thrash the shit out of, without it making any squeaky noises

Before the First WW it was pretty common to play more than one concerto on a night. Three usually. Sarasate would play his concertos, take a brak and then issue ( personally !) new tickets for the public disposed to listen some more. I think Kavakos is the best player of the moment, a stunning talent. Am quite sure he could do three concertos and still stand up. I had witnessed a number of players doing 2-3 concerts. I remember well Szeryng doing nine concerts in three consecutive nights and a Romanian player doing 12 in four consecutive nights. 

[Victor Roman]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

I’ve never had that experience.

Everyone I have ever sold a fiddle to was sure they had found the best sounding instrument they could afford.

Sometimes I wouldn’t have chosen the same instrument from the same selection, but i never met a customer who would cut corners with their sound preference.

If someone did ask for a discount because they were disappointed with the sound I would get them out of the shop politely but rapidly.

First, I want to thank you for your patience. It is not my intention to be controversial - I simply can't wrap my mind around these statements.

Everyone I have ever sold a fiddle to was sure they had found the best sounding instrument they could afford.

This makes no sense to me. Short of trying truckloads of fiddles all over the World ( within my price range...) how would I be sure the one I found is the best sounding I can afford ?

Sometimes I wouldn’t have chosen the same instrument from the same selection, but i never met a customer who would cut corners with their sound preference.

If the customer is well informed he surely would prefer Perlman's Strad. The customer IS cutting corners simply by buying what he can afford. Unless of course what you are saying is that Perlman's Strad tone is to be found in the $30k braket.

If someone did ask for a discount because they were disappointed with the sound I would get them out of the shop politely but rapidly.

"Disappointed" is not my choice in framing the issue. But, if for example I would have hoped for a smoother upper E and a slightly cleaner A etc etc etc and I did not have the time, energy and money to visit all the dealers all over the World then I would definitely ask for a discount given that the violin is better than what I had and while there might be a couple of small issues, I can cope with those. 

 

[violinsRus]

2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I recently watched/listened to Kavakos

Yes!  He's extremely impressive, not the least being his bow hold.   goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat! And maybe more than one way to look at buying and selling, and tonal preference etc...  Let's go listen to some great music!

 

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I recently watched/listened to Kavakos (who is surely one of the foremost professionals) play the Tchaikovsky violin concerto. It was a really thrilling performance, not least because he was wearing spectacles. It is a decidedly athletic violin concerto, and it was absolutely gripping, watching if his glasses were going to fall off his nose. By the end, it was not only a miracle that his glasses were still on his nose, but also impressive that he could even still stand up.

Stellar playing!

But how will he ever achieve mainstream-popularity without taking body contortion lessons from Lindsey Sterling?

[martin swan]

27 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

First, I want to thank you for your patience. It is not my intention to be controversial - I simply can't wrap my mind around these statements.

Everyone I have ever sold a fiddle to was sure they had found the best sounding instrument they could afford.

This makes no sense to me. Short of trying truckloads of fiddles all over the World ( within my price range...) how would I be sure the one I found is the best sounding I can afford ?

 

 

Most clients I meet have already been to, or intend to go to, around 10 dealerships ...

With any luck they come to us towards the end of their search, since if they are at the beginning of the search they will walk past an exceptional instrument in the belief that they will find something better.

[Blank face]

3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

he needed one that he could thrash the shit out of, without it making any squeaky noises

That's quite a definition one can work with.

[GeorgeH]

27 minutes ago, martin swan said:

With any luck they come to us towards the end of their search, since if they are at the beginning of the search they will walk past an exceptional instrument in the belief that they will find something better.

Or they will abbreviate their search to purchase a less-than-exceptional instrument in the belief that they won't find something better.

So they may not even make it to your shop.

 

[Don Cooke]

I had a very similar experience as my neighbor to the south, Zeissica. Last summer I played around 50 fiddles at three major dealers. I liked 5 of them, so I was batting 10%, which is a good reason not to order fiddles sight unseen (or unplayed). I ended up with a violin from a living maker built in 2019. For just under $20K I could not be happier. Of course, the time and travel (Seattle to Philadelphia) was a lot but well worth it in my opinion.

[Pierrick584]

I would definitely go for a modern instrument, or most likely commissioning it, in my experience, old instruments are unpredictable and often have various issues. but of course, it's not always the case. but I personally would not risk it if its a work tool

[Skeezy Bojangle]

On 10/13/2024 at 2:34 AM, Geoffrey N said:

Or you might get very lucky and find a Czech or German violin for $5000 that's awesome,

That's what happened for me. I ran across a F. X. Drozen violin and never looked back.