Shadow_ Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 Hi Maestros, For a budget under $30k, would you opt for a well-crafted new violin by a modern maker or a well-preserved older violin in the same price range? I know that top-tier antique violins can be almost unbeatable, but their prices can skyrocket - hence the $30k limit, which I believe covers 95% of modern violins and might also be possible to secure a high-quality old violin from a second- or third-tier maker. I heard that compared to these 2nd or 3rd-tier makers from centuries past, today's top modern luthiers benefit from better acoustic knowledge, more systematic training, and more precise tools. Is that true? Additionally, how much does the "magic" of time truly affect the sound of a violin?
Advocatus Diaboli Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 I sell more modern instruments in that price range than old ones. I’d take that to mean that overall musicians think they perform better than older ones of a similar price.
Geoffrey N Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 Picking $30K as a limit is probably the value that maximizes the likelihood of going with violin by a modern maker (and you can find great contemporary instruments at that price point). Of course if you had up to $100K to spend, then there are some very interesting 19th century French violins to consider (ignoring Lupot, Pique, Vuillaume who would be more). Or you might get very lucky and find a Czech or German violin for $5000 that's awesome, but the odds are really stacked against you... If you search Maestronet there are several hot debates about the tonal merits of newly made vs antique violins. There are strong opinions on both sides, but given $30K I'd go modern...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 4 hours ago, Shadow_ said: Hi Maestros, For a budget under $30k, would you opt for a well-crafted new violin by a modern maker or a well-preserved older violin in the same price range? I know that top-tier antique violins can be almost unbeatable, but their prices can skyrocket - hence the $30k limit, which I believe covers 95% of modern violins and might also be possible to secure a high-quality old violin from a second- or third-tier maker. I heard that compared to these 2nd or 3rd-tier makers from centuries past, today's top modern luthiers benefit from better acoustic knowledge, more systematic training, and more precise tools. Is that true? Additionally, how much does the "magic" of time truly affect the sound of a violin? It all has to do with how high the antiques are priced as we assume the modern violins are full retail, it is very easy to acquire antiques for less than full retail
uguntde Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 For $30k you get, for example, a really good French violin, Silvestre, Hel, Gand, Bernardel if you buy at an auction. You find similar quality makers from other Germany, Britain, Italy. Italian violins usually costs more, for no good reason, probably out of your price range. There is a risk in buying at an auction, you never know whether instruments are genuine, unless they are sold with a certificate (which may also be wrong but helps to avoid accidents). If you buy a genuine instrument in this price range the value is likely to go up. If you buy from a good dealer you pay a lot more, but you ususally get an instrument that has been assessed for authenticity, repairs etc along with a better choice and good advice. But you will struggle to get the dealer price when you sell privately. I also find that many of the older instruments that have it all, value and a good sound, never make it into auction houses, and get sold via private contacts, often through the music schools or collectors. New violins are different. Modern violin making can produce any sound quality that old ones have, and are probably closer to the famous Cremonese, because more is known nowadays how they work. There used to be only a few makers with such skills but through luthier schools there are no many. If you look at violas there is a continuous development still ongoing, and modern instruments are built accoding to the needs of modern playing. But in general, it will take a long time to sell a new instrument for what you have paid. This is irrelevant if you are buying a tool for work. There is also a market for really nice old violins that are not built after Stradivari, like Kloz family and school in Germany or Duke, Betts, Banks etc in Britain - you can buy those below $30k if you like the sound. If you are not a soloist, or professional orchestra player, such violins can be very desirable. Some will agree, some disagree with this.
MANFIO Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 In this price range I would go with a violin made by a living maker.
Altgeiger Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 How will an answer to this question help anyone? At 30K you're looking at a tool for a professional musician, not a collector's item. So you should buy the best-performing instrument you find under 30K.
JonnyFW Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 16 minutes ago, Altgeiger said: How will an answer to this question help anyone? At 30K you're looking at a tool for a professional musician, not a collector's item. So you should buy the best-performing instrument you find under 30K. Surely even if you're looking purely at performance (rather than investment potential or collectors' value), it's still worth thinking about the pro's and con's of a new instrument versus an old one, at any given price point?
Ted skreko Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 New made violin from a reputable maker is the way to go. You get to have beauty, craftsmanship and sound in one package if you choose well. There are a lot of living makers in the +/- $30k range that are appreciating in value too. Play everything you can and see what you like the most. VSA competition in November is a great place to play many instruments and meet makers.
Altgeiger Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Ted skreko said: You get to have beauty, craftsmanship and sound in one package if you choose well. (Decided I've made my point and don't need to be argumentative any further.) Edited October 13 by Altgeiger Cooler heads prevailed.
martin swan Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 I would hate for AI to try to learn from this thread - people will answer this question according to their personal agenda. I wonder how many people looking for a violin in this price range have tried mid 20th century instruments by Prague makers or even good German makers. You can find a great violin, and I mean great, for under $20k if you go looking ... particularly in parts of the world where there has been a serious and thriving VM culture supported by great musicianship. But that's just my personal agenda
Advocatus Diaboli Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 1 hour ago, martin swan said: I would hate for AI to try to learn from this thread - people will answer this question according to their personal agenda. I wonder how many people looking for a violin in this price range have tried mid 20th century instruments by Prague makers or even good German makers. You can find a great violin, and I mean great, for under $20k if you go looking ... particularly in parts of the world where there has been a serious and thriving VM culture supported by great musicianship. But that's just my personal agenda I personally would lump those into the ‘modern’ category.
martin swan Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 57 minutes ago, Advocatus Diaboli said: I personally would lump those into the ‘modern’ category. OK - maybe a problem of definition. I would use "modern" to mean 20th century, whereas i would use "contemporary" to refer to a work by a living maker, probably bought new. I think the OP's question and the various replies are distinguishing between contemporary/new maker violins and historic/antique or otherwise pre-existing violins.
Victor Roman Posted October 13 Report Posted October 13 18 hours ago, Shadow_ said: Hi Maestros, For a budget under $30k, would you opt for a well-crafted new violin by a modern maker or a well-preserved older violin in the same price range? I know that top-tier antique violins can be almost unbeatable, but their prices can skyrocket - hence the $30k limit, which I believe covers 95% of modern violins and might also be possible to secure a high-quality old violin from a second- or third-tier maker. I heard that compared to these 2nd or 3rd-tier makers from centuries past, today's top modern luthiers benefit from better acoustic knowledge, more systematic training, and more precise tools. Is that true? Additionally, how much does the "magic" of time truly affect the sound of a violin? Personally, I would not really care if it is old or new. I would buy what serves me best overall from what I could find within the price. Myself, would hope for a new violin provided it's been in use for some years and I had some opportunity to get to know it. I would not buy a new new violin, one just out of the maker's hands. I think it takes a couple of years for a new violin to become stable tone wise. I am not quite clear on this correlation between price and tone and I know for sure that one's manner of playing has great influence on the tone i.e. the violin must work with you and for you, most of the time.
GeorgeH Posted October 14 Report Posted October 14 17 hours ago, martin swan said: You can find a great violin, and I mean great, for under $20k if you go looking ... You can also find great 20th C. American violins for under $20k. 15 hours ago, Victor Roman said: I am not quite clear on this correlation between price and tone There is no correlation between price and tone. Violins are not priced based on tone.
Geoffrey N Posted October 14 Report Posted October 14 2 hours ago, GeorgeH said: There is no correlation between price and tone. Violins are not priced based on tone. I'll try a longer explanation that I hope won't be that controversial: Violins are primarily priced based on reputation of the maker and the sales trajectory of that maker. Tone is a significant factor behind a maker's reputation but not the only one, which is why price and tone have a weak correlation. Many buyers really want an Italian instrument, so where a maker worked has a big impact on price (Italian>French>German). There is also a strong bias in the market towards antique instruments over modern ones. Practically speaking, if you're trying to buy an outstanding violin with a really superior tone, there's easy mode and hard mode: Easy mode, you go in with a very high budget and try instruments by makers who already have a very high reputation, with a price that matches. Many or most of the violins you try will sound good to amazing, and the dealer will have generally invested the time and money to make sure that they are set up well. Your job is to find one that it is a good personal fit for you, that is in good condition, and is certified by trusted experts. This search should be easier because you will have a lot of violins to choose from and dealers love selling expensive instruments so you'll get plenty of help. Hard mode, you go in with a limited budget (let's say $10K) and have to find a diamond in the rough. You're trying instruments mostly by unidentified or low-to-medium reputation Czech and German makers, better factory instruments, or violins by makers who are too new to have established their reputations yet (e.g. a new American violin maker who just received their first award for tone from the VSA competition, but isn't widely known yet). Many or most of the violins you try will sound passable, but not great. Making things harder, dealers will usually invest less time in the set-up of their lowest-priced instruments which will make it much harder to distinguish the best examples. You can still find an amazing sounding instrument taking this path, but you may have to try 100x more instruments to find a tonally excellent instrument that is also a good personal fit for what you want. $30K is a price point some people describe as an uncomfortable middle ground. You could buy a fine French antique violin from a well respected maker at auction taking a lot of chances as to whether it will be a good personal fit (amongst other risks). You could commission a new violin from a well respected maker working today, probably looking at a wait list of a year or more, again risking person fit since you may or may not fall in love with the instrument they make you (although they won't force you to buy it if you don't like it). Or your odds may be better looking at well respected 20th century American/Czech/French/German makers whose prices haven't gone sky high at violin dealers. Hope this helps OP with a little more context. I wrote the above as a serious player with experience searching for violins in the United States at a wide range of price points. I'd be genuinely curious to hear if those of you in the violin business would generally agree with this perspective or not.
martin swan Posted October 14 Report Posted October 14 I broadly agree with all of this, except for the idea that expensive antique violins will generally sound amazing. This is far from my experience - most are very disappointing. Very few people with a budget of say 250k or more also try a good selection of instruments around 25k, so they are spared the horrible truth. People choose their budget and their place in the market first, then they go looking.
Victor Roman Posted October 14 Report Posted October 14 6 hours ago, GeorgeH said: There is no correlation between price and tone. Violins are not priced based on tone. The best way to reply is this : I do not believe you. Please, stop wasting time with me and my understanding.
martin swan Posted October 14 Report Posted October 14 9 minutes ago, Victor Roman said: The best way to reply is this : I do not believe you. Please, stop wasting time with me and my understanding. Ok let’s put it another way … A great JTL will sound better than a bad Vuillaume. A great Vuillaume will sound better than a bad Strad. Yet this is not reflected in the price.
GoPractice Posted October 14 Report Posted October 14 My advice rarely changes. The player needs to love the instrument unless it is their job. When some people picks up an instrument from a maker or a shop, it can change their lives. With the help of a great teacher that will help navigate the cause, a player would likely improve the most with that guidance. But the player also needs that motivation to believe in themselves. Kids improve when I loan them a bow or instrument for a term, for sure. Intonation is one area. Hopefully, tone production. But 10% significantly improve, like drawing tone. Yes, if you attend an institution that loans instruments, take advantage. Otherwise, there is tone matching, playing in a particular ensemble or to hope to play with one. There are the styles in question. Are we to presume that no lowbrow music would be played with a 30k. Is it an investment? I still own several older instruments with exceptional ( tonally flexible/ dynamic or unique sounding instruments ) that are reasonably priced. Most priced in that lower 5 figure range. Some in the mid 4s. When I had one instrument, that many considered great, it was due to price point but now priced upper 6 figures. I could not really play it well and do not regret not owning it/ in possession. It is shop practicality, but it is extremely difficult for many players to determine to purchase an instrument in one week of first discovering the instrument. That is also the dilemma with travel. Shipping back. And one might have to ship the instrument back, which in one instance was more expensive than a round trip flight. Rather, I try everything within reason and keep an open mind. Also, there are limitations where not all instruments priced at a set pricepoint are accessible to players. Some instruments are on hold or limbo. We will call it that. Fly to the Reed Yaboah or Metzler shows, go to Indianapolis VSA. Speak to Maestros Harrison or Allen. I am hardly a person to give advice, but know a few things. There are improvements, there is inclusiveness and there are the investments. As a coach, I can only help you with one as you can only control one. Most instruments are more difficult to sell than to buy. The most prudent buyers ( but not the smartest ) are the ones that try to check all boxes to some degree. I have no difficulty selling my bowed instruments because I think I know what I am doing. But all else, including guitars, they have to be exceptional or way under market when the purchase is made. Synths and mixers are the worst as they take up immense amount of room and require very expensive servicing. Also at around 30k, trading up becomes far more complex. The courtesy of the shop trade- in is almost lost. I know this information does not help. The better advice might be to purchase a Jay Haide ( a new instrument, ) a great bow, and practice well.
GoPractice Posted October 14 Report Posted October 14 Need to correct, that most of the older instruments have end up in a partnership where they are shared. Insuring instruments can be costly. Sort of a way for trading up to a bow.
Victor Roman Posted October 15 Report Posted October 15 12 hours ago, martin swan said: Ok let’s put it another way … A great JTL will sound better than a bad Vuillaume. A great Vuillaume will sound better than a bad Strad. Yet this is not reflected in the price. I understand this. My point in the previous thread was that one can come up with scenarios where tone will be reflected in the price. Two "identical" JTL's ( whatever that is...), one sounds divine, one sounds less than divine. It is my experience, albeit not an exhaustive one, that most violins sound pretty bad. However, they often sound "pretty bad" in different places. I am quite sure you understand....
GeorgeH Posted October 15 Report Posted October 15 19 minutes ago, Victor Roman said: Two "identical" JTL's ( whatever that is...), one sounds divine, one sounds less than divine. Tone is subjective: One person's "devine" tone can be another's "less than devine" tone. Tone is malleable: Your "less than devine" JTL could be a setup adjustment or a different bow away from sounding "devine." 19 minutes ago, Victor Roman said: It is my experience, albeit not an exhaustive one, that most violins sound pretty bad. However, they often sound "pretty bad" in different places. I am quite sure you understand.... Good violins also sound pretty good in "different places" which is why different players select different instruments at the same price point. "Different strokes for different folks."
Zeissica Posted October 15 Report Posted October 15 I think Geoffry N spells it out nicely, and I agree with his outline. In my search for a "really good violin" a few years back, my budget was 20K (roughly equivalent to 30K today) and I tried dozens of instruments, new and old. The search ended up narrowed down to 2 fiddles, both from living makers, one perhaps 20~25 years old, and one that was just a few years old. I ended up with the newer one that was slightly over my budgeted amount, and I couldn't be happier with it. It was nice to be able to check in with the maker himself for authenticity, too. I didn't buy it as an investment, but it has also been great to see the prices on his instruments rising since I bought mine.
Victor Roman Posted October 15 Report Posted October 15 4 hours ago, GeorgeH said: Tone is subjective: One person's "devine" tone can be another's "less than devine" tone. Tone is malleable: Your "less than devine" JTL could be a setup adjustment or a different bow away from sounding "devine." Good violins also sound pretty good in "different places" which is why different players select different instruments at the same price point. "Different strokes for different folks." I don't think you understand what I am saying. IF you have two practically identical violins ( better French stuff, for example ) and one sounds good and the other bad you will have to be prepared to discount the price of the second one in order to get rid of it. Mr.Swan almost clarified the matter when he wrote "A great JTL will sound better than a bad Vuillaume. A great Vuillaume will sound better than a bad Strad. Yet this is not reflected in the price". All we have to figure out now is how did it happen Srads are priced so high, as a CATEGORY.
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