Bought this violin but the sounds seems a bit boxed in. Can it be freed up?

[yoyogogo]

Bought thus violin. I'm not sure if it's worth keeping. The tone is decent but sounds a bit boxed in. 

 

Any thought on the violin please?the seller used thus for 20 years and old age has prevented her from keep on playing. 

[lvlagneto]

I'm no expert, but can you expand on "boxed in"?  Hollow?  Muted? 

Is this a new setup?  I see this is some special string combo?  I'm a bit baffled by the E string sleeve and parchment, but I doubt that's your problem.     

Any open seams?  Chinrest contacting the tailpiece? 

The tailpiece is an alloy one?
 

[Blank face]

3 hours ago, yoyogogo said:

Bought thus violin. I'm not sure if it's worth keeping. The tone is decent but sounds a bit boxed in. 

 

Any thought on the violin please?the seller used thus for 20 years and old age has prevented her from keep on playing. 

This looks to be a relative decent French violin from the Caussin shop/school in good condition. From this side of the screen it's impossible to tell if the set up, soundpost position or other variables are in the right state.

I'm wondering why this one, and similar the other you have posted, are showing the tape stripes at the neck and fingerboard, which are used by absolute beginners (and not recommended by a lot of teachers), when the former owner is said to have it used for 20 years? Also strings and tailpiece appear to be brandnew, so there's something not very reliable going on. Or did you do all this by yourself?

[Blank face]

The pins in the button are pointing towards a not well made repair of the neck attachment. So the best would be to let it all check by an experienced repair person.

[yoyogogo]

53 minutes ago, Blank face said:

The pins in the button are pointing towards a not well made repair of the neck attachment. So the best would be to let it all check by an experienced repair person.

- im using it to learn so the teacher put the tape on for me hehe. i am a beginner

-do you think the violin is decent to keep? i got it for around $400usd and spend $100usd at the luthier

-the luthier, who has worked on instruments for the new Zealand symphony orchestra players, found everything to be in good working order, found a tiny crack and repaired it. 

[Blank face]

32 minutes ago, yoyogogo said:

-do you think the violin is decent to keep? i got it for around $400usd and spend $100usd at the luthier

Only you can decide if it's to keep or not. The price seems to be  fine as long as there's no major and costy repair to be done.

The more I'm looking at the button/neck heel area it's more concerning. The button looks heavily mutilated, and the big protuding pins are supposed to split up both button and heel in the long run, so I would immediately do something about it. That's a crucial point for the neck stability. Possibly the neck was taken from a different violin and adjusted heavy handed?

If you have a luthier at hand I would ask her/him regarding sound adjustments, what's always more promising than ask some online opinions. From the photos it looks as if the bridge was moved out of the right position, the string action a bit too high, but your photos from angled povs aren't giving much clue.

[yoyogogo]

14 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Only you can decide if it's to keep or not. The price looks fine as long as there's no major and costy repair to be done.

The more I'm looking at the button/neck heel area it's more concerning. The button looks heavily mutilated, and the big protuding pins are supposed to split up both button and heel in the long run, so I would immediately do something about it. That's a crucial point for the neck stability. Possibly the neck was taken from a different violin and adjusted heavy handed?

If you have a luthier at hand I would ask her/him regarding sound adjustments, what's always more promising than ask some online opinions.

sorry for my dumb question, but what do you mean button/neck area? at the bottom of the fingerboard?

[Blank face]

That's called the neck button (at the bottom) and heel. The button was obviously made smaller and the region was touched up. There shouldn't be any pins there, because they are blocking the small wood movements during changes in humudity and causing damage.

BTW an experienced luthier would probably not let stand out the ends of the pegs that long.

 

[Blank face]

And when we are at it, there's also a cracked zone at the other end of the neck and the G peg which needs attention.

[yoyogogo]

Oh wow thank you for the education. I love learning when j post images. Thank you.

[Shunyata]

As a new student (which we have all been at some time) boxed in sound may have more to do with your technique than the violin.

If the instrument hasn’t been played for awhile, it may just need time to open up.  They like to be played regularly.

The bridge looks like it could be a bit thick at the heart and edge.  (Difficult to tell from a photo.). This would definitely box it in.  A luthier can reshape the bridge if needed.

[lvlagneto]

5 hours ago, Blank face said:

... but your photos from angled povs aren't giving much clue.

Agreed on the difficult points of view.  The neck angle might actually be low.  The fingerboard might also taper quite a bit in profile, but the photos aren't helping us evaluate.  Bridge looks a touch high, but we don't know where the post is.  On we go...

[yoyogogo]

- The violin has not been played for about 5 years

- My daughter violin teacher is a current member of the NZSO, and she mentioned the sound doesn't feel to freely flow out. Even though it is loud next to the ear, it doesn't quite flow freely and project as much

- However she absolutely loves the sounds and the tone of the violin, which is very similar to her current one

- Interesting that you mentioned about the bridge being too high. The wellington luthier seems to be happy with the overall setup of the violin. 

"The basic setup is good with a well cut bridge and good fitting soundpost. It plays easily over the 4 strings. To my ear the sound is rather closed and not projecting. This is probably due to the high arched back and front causing stiffness preventing a more open vibrating sound. It’s a characteristic of the violin and very little can be done to improve that unfortunately. Some improvements could be achieved by resetting the neck to modern day standards. Any dealer or shop would make these adjustments before putting the violin up for sale. It would be very expensive and I don’t recommend that in this case it should be done."

- in regards to the neck angle, this is what luthier said

"

I found the A string brocken this morning and have replaced it with a Warchal.

Because of the steep angle of the neck there is above average tension on the strings putting extra strain on the pegs and tuning. Dominant E strings are not generally liked but I think in this situation they work well

because they are thinner than the average available E. I drilled a thinner hole in the E peg as the string was slipping through when I tried to tune. Care should be taken with the fine tuners on the tailpiece as they can easily touch the violin top as has happened before. "

interestingly he did not mention anything about the heel/button of the violin. 

 

[violinsRus]

A set of Rhondo strings or even Dominant Pro might 'open up' the sound.  

I have an old high-arched violin that is certainly not a closed sound, so I wouldn't assume the arching is limiting the prospect of improvement.

  

[Blank face]

11 hours ago, yoyogogo said:

- The violin has not been played for about 5 years

- My daughter violin teacher is a current member of the NZSO, and she mentioned the sound doesn't feel to freely flow out. Even though it is loud next to the ear, it doesn't quite flow freely and project as much

- However she absolutely loves the sounds and the tone of the violin, which is very similar to her current one

- Interesting that you mentioned about the bridge being too high. The wellington luthier seems to be happy with the overall setup of the violin. 

"The basic setup is good with a well cut bridge and good fitting soundpost. It plays easily over the 4 strings. To my ear the sound is rather closed and not projecting. This is probably due to the high arched back and front causing stiffness preventing a more open vibrating sound. It’s a characteristic of the violin and very little can be done to improve that unfortunately. Some improvements could be achieved by resetting the neck to modern day standards. Any dealer or shop would make these adjustments before putting the violin up for sale. It would be very expensive and I don’t recommend that in this case it should be done."

- in regards to the neck angle, this is what luthier said

"

I found the A string brocken this morning and have replaced it with a Warchal.

Because of the steep angle of the neck there is above average tension on the strings putting extra strain on the pegs and tuning. Dominant E strings are not generally liked but I think in this situation they work well

because they are thinner than the average available E. I drilled a thinner hole in the E peg as the string was slipping through when I tried to tune. Care should be taken with the fine tuners on the tailpiece as they can easily touch the violin top as has happened before. "

interestingly he did not mention anything about the heel/button of the violin. 

 

Essentially it is told that the neck angle is wrong, taking away all the speculative things about arching etc. That's caused by the manipulations at the neck heel and has an huge impact on bridge height, and usually on sound and playability.

Once more, without appropriate photos it is not possible to tell anything more in particular. You could measure the height of the bridge, neck projection and distance between board and strings (at the end of the fingerboard).

[yoyogogo]

2 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Essentially it is told that the neck angle is wrong, taking away all the speculative things about arching etc. That's caused by the manipulations at the neck heel and has an huge impact on bridge height, and usually on sound and playability.

Once more, without appropriate photos it is not possible to tell anything more in particular. You could measure the height of the bridge, neck projection and distance between board and strings (at the end of the fingerboard).

What photos do you need me to post? Just so I need know what to take to help you analyze the violin . Sorry I'm not an expert so guidance please.

To put in new finger board and rework he quoted 1400nzd so around 1000usd

[Blank face]

41 minutes ago, yoyogogo said:

What photos do you need me to post? Just so I need know what to take to help you analyze the violin . Sorry I'm not an expert so guidance please.

To put in new finger board and rework he quoted 1400nzd so around 1000usd

How to photograph an instrument is described in this thread. It's important that the pictures are taken straight flush and not from an angle, in focus and not with any kind of fisheye lens.

I would guess that it doesn't need a new fingerboard (only), but a neck reset. I'm not informed about NZ violin repair prices, so I cannot comment on this.

At least it's not foreseeable if such an operation would change anything more to your liking with certainity. I'm also wondering if it's you personally finding the tone unpleasant or if it's just that others are telling you this, but you're not noticing anything? In this case you shouldn't worry much.

 

[FiddleDoug]

"- Interesting that you mentioned about the bridge being too high. The wellington luthier seems to be happy with the overall setup of the violin. 

"The basic setup is good with a well cut bridge and good fitting soundpost. It plays easily over the 4 strings. To my ear the sound is rather closed and not projecting. This is probably due to the high arched back and front causing stiffness preventing a more open vibrating sound. It’s a characteristic of the violin and very little can be done to improve that unfortunately. Some improvements could be achieved by resetting the neck to modern day standards. Any dealer or shop would make these adjustments before putting the violin up for sale. It would be very expensive and I don’t recommend that in this case it should be done."

- in regards to the neck angle, this is what luthier said

"

I found the A string brocken this morning and have replaced it with a Warchal.

Because of the steep angle of the neck there is above average tension on the strings putting extra strain on the pegs and tuning. Dominant E strings are not generally liked but I think in this situation they work well

because they are thinner than the average available E. I drilled a thinner hole in the E peg as the string was slipping through when I tried to tune. Care should be taken with the fine tuners on the tailpiece as they can easily touch the violin top as has happened before. "

interestingly he did not mention anything about the heel/button of the violin. "

Seems like a fairly thorough report from the luthier. He probably didn't mention the button, because it would be part o the "very expensive" neck reset. I have had very good luck using Zyex strings to help bring out the sound of instruments. Get rid of the tube on the e string.

[Brad Dorsey]

2 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

...in regards to the neck angle, this is what luthier said

"...Because of the steep angle of the neck there is above average tension on the strings putting extra strain on the pegs and tuning..."

Seems like a fairly thorough report from the luthier...

The luthier is confused about the relationship between string tension and neck angle.  Yes, if the strings are at "above average tension," they will put extra strain on the pegs.  But they will also be tuned sharp.  The solution is to loosen the strings until they are tuned to A-440.  Or perhaps the luthier means that the violin is strung with high tension strings, which would also put extra strain on the pegs.  If this is a problem, the solution is to switch the strings to a lower tension set.

This all is unrelated to the neck angle.

The effect of a high fingerboard projection ("steep neck angle") is that the strings would exert more downward force on the bridge.  This would be a compressive force, not a tensile force.

The strain on the pegs is not affected by the neck angle.  

[yoyogogo]

wow learning so much thank you. 

 

-i think i will keep the string until they break - I'm still about grade 3-4 so still plenty of learning to do before i can even get the most out of the current setup

-i do like the sound, and i can still remember how beautiful it sounded when it was played by the nzso member, so i know it has load of potential and she loved the violin. 

-i wont worry about the neck, as the cost to fix it would be more than the violin itself, so no point really. i will onsell when the time comes for a better violin

-ps i just bought another 100+ years old violin so cant wait to have that in the hand and share photos with you, and i will take photos according to the instructions  only $60us and been in the family for nearly 100 years. so lets wait and hope

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, yoyogogo said:

$60us and been in the family for nearly 100 years. 

That’s the usual AI generated description for the usual.

[FiddleDoug]

"only $60us and been in the family for nearly 100 years"

I would guess that you'll have to spend at least a couple hundred$ to get it playable.

[Blank face]

I would rather recommend to spent the money for setting the violins the OP already has into a good condition, for example a proper repair of the neck and button of the posted violin, than to hoard more wrecked stuff.

[yoyogogo]

6 hours ago, Blank face said:

I would rather recommend to spent the money for setting the violins the OP already has into a good condition, for example a proper repair of the neck and button of the posted violin, than to hoard more wrecked stuff.

Do you think this violin is nice enough to spend some money in it thiugh?

[Blank face]

35 minutes ago, yoyogogo said:

Do you think this violin is nice enough to spend some money in it thiugh?

Based on the actual photos and given that the scroll belongs it would make sense in my eyes.