High positions on G string

[Shadow_]

4 hours ago, geoff1954 said:

A lot of 'student quality' violins pass through my hands. This 'wooliness' of tone in 4th position and above on the G string, and to a lesser extent on the D string, is very common. It's not wolf notes.  I've not found an answer, other than buying a more expensive violin. This is one aspect of violins where I think you usually get what you pay for. 

The violin I am using is by an award-winning luthier, at around $10 to 20k range, is it still inevitable to have this problem on violins at this level? I understand it might still be far away from those top-notch instruments though

[lvlagneto]

1 hour ago, Shadow_ said:

The violin I am using is by an award-winning luthier, at around $10 to 20k range ...

If the luthier is still alive... ring ring!   

If you're in that price range, no harm in having someone take a look if you can. 
 

[lvlagneto]

2 hours ago, Stephen Fine said:

My instruments are awesome and don't have prominent wolves.

It happens to me now on my students' instruments.  And, no, I don't change the fingerings to avoid them.  I imagine if I located a wolf bad enough I would maybe have mercy on the student, but probably not.  The only way to learn to play with a wolf is to play with a wolf.

Playing "through" it is one way of description, but you mention countering it with "bowing/technique" and that sparked in me the idea that it's also a matter of playing in that register the way the particular violin "wants" to be played.

Thanks for describing your work. 

[MANFIO]

8 hours ago, Shadow_ said:

The violin I am using is by an award-winning luthier, at around $10 to 20k range, is it still inevitable to have this problem on violins at this level? I understand it might still be far away from those top-notch instruments though

Yes,  I think you can have this problem even on rather expensive instruments. It is an acid test for an instrument. That is why I wrote the article above about choosing a good viola.

[crazy jane]

Great instruments have wolf tones, too.

 

 

[Stephen Fine]

13 hours ago, Shadow_ said:

The violin I am using is by an award-winning luthier, at around $10 to 20k range, is it still inevitable to have this problem on violins at this level? I understand it might still be far away from those top-notch instruments though

Absolutely.  But if there's a bad wolf, hopefully that means that the rest of the upper-G register is just fantastic.  Or if the upper-G register isn't fantastic, that must mean the E-A and D are just truly superb out-of-this-world.  And if not, then it's not a very good $10,000 violin.

[Altgeiger]

18 hours ago, Stephen Fine said:

it's also a matter of playing in that register the way the particular violin "wants" to be played.

Sometimes you do have to figure out how that one wolf note wants to be played and adjust to it.  But I think it's almost as common that a wolf note feels wrong in a way that makes the player adjust their approach, when what it really needs is to simply be played the same way as the surrounding notes.  It takes confidence and self-control to ignore the "off" feel and simply play the note.  I liken it to pilot-induced oscillations in an airplane; the player's attempts to correct the problem cause them to lose control.  I've recently purchased a really powerful, flexible, great-sounding viola where the F a seventh above the G string acts this way, and it's taken me a couple months to settle into just playing it as though I didn't notice its antics.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

13 hours ago, crazy jane said:

Great instruments have wolf tones, too.

 

 

Great players like challenges and overcoming wolf notes is one of them.  I've noticed some good viola players go up and down the C searching for a wolf note.  If they find one they will spend some time taming it and they get satisfaction doing this.

If they can't find a wolf note they become frustrated because they don't have a big challenge.  But other players appreciate not having these problems.

Farmers love flat land but mountain climbers don't.  It's not possible to please everyone.

[GoPractice]

On 10/2/2024 at 4:50 PM, lvlagneto said:

I'm certain that there are levels of honk, and then undesirable devastatingly strong wolf that makes "playing 'through'" impossible.

The conversation on wolfs do appear to evolve. I was told to play through them decades ago, with old timers. Performing with/ against a piano can be the idea situation or in an orchestra where one can fake it/ drop out. 

On violin, given minor player adaptions, when it is really impossible to play through, one has to go to the better shops. Violas and certainly cellos more severe instances.

The pitch width and variety/ quality of the wolf matters. I would assume a well made modern instrument is likely to have a narrowed wolf. 

Players with experience of playing "thorough" a wolf can assist in making suggestions and establishing thresholds. But experimenting is also important if curious about tonal ranges and dynamics.

If one has a piece that requires many notes to be played quietly and sensitively, and a particular wolf gets in the way, another instrument might be used. Certainly on sustained tones, preventing hiccups in the sound might turn into a grind.

That devastatingly strong wolf might require a visit to a shop, with an open mind. If one were to work from the simplest to the more complex solutions, the process might take time.  I do know of kids ( their instruments ) arriving at a summer camp and the conditions and extra practice time sort of sets wolfy things into motion. They have a level of expert naivete in their playing and when they nail it, the wolf appears. Usually they are busy enough that their ears and bodies adapt. I lent a kid a bow once and the wolf was more manageable. He just needed someone to confirm what it was and possibly something develop work arounds and he did. The more intense types might panic. I think softer finger and quicker right hand/ finger work helps adapt quicker. This might be a bad suggestion, as many wolfs can be more complex. Learning to sneak up on a wolf can help determine what transitions/ landing on the note make the wolf activate audibly or not. Letting go of the hardness/ squeeze of the left hand pad can also help in more sensitive playing. On melodic notes, I tend to push the treble overtones in the very quite sections, in hopes that the sound carries. While in middle voicings backing off towards the fingerboard and adequate velocity given the direction of the bow can help overcome a hesitant string. The more tired the string, less predictable the saving effects.

Steepness of the instrument angle, arm flair, flat hair. So much matter. On cello, a friend returning from a festival in Europe commented on the micro managing of the bow work, finding the proper - correct edge/ bow placement/ pulling - securing to the string to the tip... that sensitivity for the better players, made for an more exciting performance. Of course these sessions were in smaller rooms, but he also commented on how many of the older instruments ( restorations, I am sure ) did not have the traditional sonic problems that we'd encounter in the past. Certainly kids are still muscling a bit ( on newer instrument, or bashing old ) but for, the lack of control, massive tone is a good alternative.

And sometimes wolfs go away given playing time. 

[MANFIO]

To avoid wolves and rasped notes I make my top and backs on the thick side, use a rather strong bass bar, and leave a thicker region on the lower part of the inferior f-holes eyes.