Shadow_ Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 Hello maestros, I've recently noticed that when playing in higher positions on the G string (5th position and above), the sound becomes somewhat muffled and weak. Initially, I thought it might be due to my technique, but even my teacher found it challenging to achieve the desired focused tone. This leads me to believe the issue might be with the instrument. I just changed my sound post a few weeks ago and I was happy with the overall sound, except for the issue in the higher position on G. Are there other ways to address this? I'm currently using Dominant strings - would switching to a set with higher or lower tension help? I'm open to any suggestions that could improve the lower register without compromising the rest of the instrument's tone. I can definitely bring it to a luthier, as long as it is not an unfixable problem (I heard somebody says it is due to the quality and structure of the instrument and can never be fixed without opening the instrument). Thanks in advance!
Dwight Brown Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 That is kind of the acid test for a violin to be sure. Trying different strings can be pretty expensive pretty fast! Different players and different instruments like different strings. I guess I would give the regular Evah Perazzi strings a try. They are much more brilliant and higher tension. They are used by a lot of soloists. I like Evah Perazzi Gold strings on violin and viola. But I’m nothing to write home about as a player. Whatever you choose you have to give them a few weeks to break in and settle down before you can tell anything. Try a new sound post and even a new bridge long before you open your instrument. That should be a lost resort unless your luthier sees something specific that is wrong inside. All that said Doninants are good professional level strings. Hillary H. Uses them and I find nothing to criticize about her playing. I’m not qualified to scrape gum off the soles of her shoes! DLB
Shadow_ Posted October 2 Author Report Posted October 2 19 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said: That is kind of the acid test for a violin to be sure. Trying different strings can be pretty expensive pretty fast! Different players and different instruments like different strings. I guess I would give the regular Evah Perazzi strings a try. They are much more brilliant and higher tension. They are used by a lot of soloists. I like Evah Perazzi Gold strings on violin and viola. But I’m nothing to write home about as a player. Whatever you choose you have to give them a few weeks to break in and settle down before you can tell anything. Try a new sound post and even a new bridge long before you open your instrument. That should be a lost resort unless your luthier sees something specific that is wrong inside. All that said Doninants are good professional level strings. Hillary H. Uses them and I find nothing to criticize about her playing. I’m not qualified to scrape gum off the soles of her shoes! DLB Thanks DLB! Can I say strings with higher tension will make high position playing easier in general?
lvlagneto Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 I agree that buying different strings can become expensive very quickly. I used to dislike Dominant recommendations, because they were so prevalent, and didn't work for me in the past, but... the Dominant G was a bit of a wolf killer (good) in my situation (fractional). But again, it could be far more complex than a string swap. Tonica (is softish and probably won't solve anything) and Dominant will be your two cheapest options to try. It may be a fingerboard/mass issue? Not sure about tension solving either... no idea. If things are indeed wolfy, most wolf killers are also sound killers.
violinsRus Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 I agree that when evaluating violins, high on the G is often a place to separate the sheep from the goats so to speak. It's where wolf tones tend to stick out, and sometimes on cheaply made violins every note up there sounds like a wolf! It can be helpful to do some comparisons with other violins, so if you have a chance to go to a store with a wide selection of set up instruments you can get a feel for how the tone on your instrument compares to others. I don't think there's a universal fix for violins that sounds poor in this area, but would be eager to hear from others. Of course bowing and bow control has a lot to do with the sound produced, and it can take a 'heavy' hand to make the string speak high on the G. In my experience...
Dwight Brown Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 You can try adding some mass to the finger board. I had not thought about that as a possibility. It is common with open A string problems on viola. Get a small amount of of blue tack like you would use to hang a poster on a wall you did not want to damage and press it under the free end of the finger board. A few grams should do it. It’s a cheap experiment and it won’t hurt anything. Keep it off the varnish though. DLB
JonnyFW Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 Out of interest, has the issue fluctuated/changed since you had the soundpost changed, or has it been constant? Just wondering if the soundpost needs playing in a bit. Also might be worth varying your bowing speed and contact point? Faster bow speed and a little closer to the bridge might help; worth experimenting.
lvlagneto Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 13 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said: You can try adding some mass to the finger board. I had not thought about that as a possibility. It is common with open A string problems on viola. Get a small amount of of blue tack like you would use to hang a poster on a wall you did not want to damage and press it under the free end of the finger board. A few grams should do it. It’s a cheap experiment and it won’t hurt anything. Keep it off the varnish though. DLB If you can determine that the issue is mass, that would be great -- like DB says, a cheap way to gather clues. I did experiments like this on a very wolfy violin -- clay under fingerboard and behind the tailpiece, clay on the strings, wolf eliminator on the G string and neighboring strings. In the end, I found that mass and wolf eliminators just made the sound quieter, muted, and we changed instruments (not everyone can do this). I suspected the fingerboard, but it just became an issue of fix turnaround, and no guarantee of the wolf being resolved. It may simply be time to upgrade if you're advancing and your instrument can't perform. This is so easy for someone to say... might be too expensive to switch instruments, but it might be too expensive to have someone rework your existing instrument.
Stephen Fine Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 Also worth remembering that great violinists (often) don't even care about wolfs. Every string player I know has a story about finding a wolf on their instrument, complaining to their teacher, and then their teacher taking the instrument and playing in such a way that the wolf "disappears." Now that I possess such skills myself, I would describe it as playing "through" the wolf.
Marty Kasprzyk Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 22 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said: You can try adding some mass to the finger board. I had not thought about that as a possibility. It is common with open A string problems on viola. Get a small amount of of blue tack like you would use to hang a poster on a wall you did not want to damage and press it under the free end of the finger board. A few grams should do it. It’s a cheap experiment and it won’t hurt anything. Keep it off the varnish though. DLB If that didn't work I suggest putting the blue tack on the top plate at a position somewhere around midway between the bass f hole lower eye and the end pin. This is the location that the top plate often shows large vibrations at the f note frequency. If that still doesn't help I suggest hanging a note on the blue tack saying " Don't play high up on the G string and instead play the same wolf note on the D string."
Andrew Victor Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 I (eventually) discovered some sting brands that allowed me to play 2-octave scales up the G string on 2 of my violins that had been inaccessible in that region for years. There are a some fine new-ish string brands now available that seem to be working on those fiddles now. I have 2 other violins that never had that problem.
Marty Kasprzyk Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 32 minutes ago, Andrew Victor said: I (eventually) discovered some sting brands that allowed me to play 2-octave scales up the G string on 2 of my violins that hand been inaccessible in that region for years. There are a some fine new-ish string brands now available that seem to be working on those fiddles now. I have 2 other violins that never had that problem. A lower tension G string might help. A wolf note occurs because the string's energy is too rapidly transfered to the violin body. The violin top plate then vibrates too much which messes up the bow-string interaction. This problem can be reduced by having a greater impedance mismatch between the string and the violin body. A greater mismatch can be achieved by either increasing the violin body's impedance (square root of the body stiffness times its mass) or by decreasing the string's impedance (square root of the string tension times its mass). Hence one type of solution being proposed is to increase the violin's impedance by adding adding weights to the fingerboard or somewhere on the top plate. An alternate is to decrease the impedance of the G string by using one with a lower tension. Many violins do not have wolf note problems because they have relatively stiff and heavy plates (high impedance). Violins with lighter and less stiff plates (lower impedance) tend to be louder but more prone to wolf notes. One strategy for makers is to gradually thin the plates until wolf notes just begin to emerge. This gives the maximum loudness while the player can still easily manage playing any wolf notes.
MANFIO Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 Zukermann starts trying violas and violins playing fff in this region... It is an acid test for the instrument. Only fine instruments will sound good in this area, in general, there will be many wolves (aka false notes) there. I think it is hard to cure.
Faren4511 Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 Some examples of G string Tension for most of the better known manufacturers: Passione 16 9.68 lbs Pirastro Wondertone 9.68 Warchal Brilliant Vintage 9.70 Larsen Virtuoso 9.70 Vision Titanium Orch 9.90 Perpetual Cadenza 9.90 Dominant 9.90 Larsen Tzigane 9.90 Larsen Original 9.90 Passione 16 1/4 9.90 Vision Solo? 10.10 Larsen Cannone Medium Direct/Focus 10.10 Larsen Cannone Medium 10.10 Passione 16 1/2 10.12 Passione Solo 10.12 Blue Infeld 10.14 Dynamo 10.40 Red Infeld 10.36 Vision Titanium Solo 10.40 Rondo Gold 10.40 Pirastro Perpetual 10.56 Peter Infeld 10.43 Rondo 10.47 Evah Pirazzi Gold "Gold" 10.56 Evah Pirazzi Gold "Silver G" 10.78 Evah Pirazzi Green 11.00 Often, Evah Pirazzi can be the worst option for some violins because of their high tension.
GoPractice Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 Could comment more on the quality of the other strings as well. Given the amount one plays, a simple swap of a higher/ lower tension g- string ( given a few hours of play/ study ) can offer insights. But, here's my general, over simplified checklist: 1) instrument angle, left arm/ fore arm/ hand access 2) player body structure/ posture, arm weight 3 ) contact point 4) bow speed 5) rosin type For my better prepared students, I play this g- g- g- g- game across the strings. The point of this exercise is to better understand tonal control and arm access. Start on the e- string, first position g- on the 2nd/ 3rd/ 1st finger and continue to the a-, d- and g- strings, ideally landing on the first ( every ) finger up until on the g- string, matching the note, tonal colours and expression. It's a game... The better students will nail the positions and access whatever scales from that finger/ hand/ arm position. It is stupid process ( because it takes time and the player has to be a bit thoughtful, ) but it is treated as a game and the goal is to listen carefully and place each finger if not carefully, at least to the proper pitch. The bow's contact point, hopefully closer to the bridge every octave, and the weight/ speed dictates the yield/ bark/ focus/ intensity/ expression. There is/ are fine American guitarists who teach position swaps at every string position with this exercise on every finger combination on different fret/ strings locations. The guitar, with the crappy major 3rd between the g- and b- strings, make for a complicated first year or two of study. Certainly physical post/ bridge, string adjustments will help. But to better understand one's own playing, it helps to work up to these positions. I do open my stance ( shoulders/ legs/ feet ) and open up the instrument a few degrees to the left on every string change when reasonable. Self adjustment is substantially less expensive than a shop adjustment. Does this take weeks/ months/ years? It might? One joy is to show kids how to play Sarasate's Navarra and this type of exploration is a must ( ok, helps, oversells do not go over well with the younger crowd - trust issues? ) before showing up. Because it is a duo/ duet, it helps to show up ready and clarity in the upper positions do help.
Daviolin Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 That's very common with Dominants. Try a higher tension set, like Evah Pirazzi or Evah Pirazzi Gold, with their E-string. Worked wonders for me.
lvlagneto Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 5 hours ago, Stephen Fine said: Now that I possess such skills myself, I would describe it as playing "through" the wolf. I'm certain that there are levels of honk, and then undesirable devastatingly strong wolf that makes "playing 'through'" impossible.
MANFIO Posted October 2 Report Posted October 2 Some soloists really put the wolves in a cage, I've seen that, but most players can't avoid them.
lvlagneto Posted October 3 Report Posted October 3 2 hours ago, MANFIO said: Some soloists really put the wolves in a cage, I've seen that, but most players can't avoid them. It would be amazing to see slow motion video of this (making specific movements to counter).
Stephen Fine Posted October 3 Report Posted October 3 3 hours ago, lvlagneto said: I'm certain that there are levels of honk, and then undesirable devastatingly strong wolf that makes "playing 'through'" impossible. Yes. I imagine there are some wolves that I couldn't handle, but I can play through most of them these days. 3 hours ago, MANFIO said: Some soloists really put the wolves in a cage, I've seen that, but most players can't avoid them. Yeah. My friend Lisa used to tell the story about Shmuel Ashkenasi doing it on a particularly bad wolf, "What wolf?" I think I also recall seeing Norman Fischer treat a bad wolf like a cute puppy once.
lvlagneto Posted October 3 Report Posted October 3 1 hour ago, Stephen Fine said: Yes. I imagine there are some wolves that I couldn't handle, but I can play through most of them these days. Do you find yourself avoiding wolf areas of the instrument by changing fingering, or you physically counter the wolf with bowing/technique?
geoff1954 Posted October 3 Report Posted October 3 A lot of 'student quality' violins pass through my hands. This 'wooliness' of tone in 4th position and above on the G string, and to a lesser extent on the D string, is very common. It's not wolf notes. I've not found an answer, other than buying a more expensive violin. This is one aspect of violins where I think you usually get what you pay for.
MANFIO Posted October 3 Report Posted October 3 Many students get their instruments while they are not playing in these regions. The problem is noticed only when the student starts to face more difficult pieces. And then he will say "my violin was good and became bad later". That is not true, the problem was there since the very beginning. I wrote this many years ago, my two cents about choosing a good viola, but applied to violins and cellos too. CHOOSING A GOOD VIOLA High level viola technique makes sense only on a fine instrument. With a good viola, you will not need to work so hard to make music. During an audition, you and your viola will be evaluated, so, the sooner you partner up with a good instrument, the better. Avoid monochrome-sounding instruments. With a good viola you can work with the bow to create various colors, passion and drama. And you can only achieve that through a generous dynamic range that allows you to play from ppp to fff. With most violas you may change your bowing speed and pressure yet almost nothing happens, which is not desirable and can be frustrating. A good test is to draw your bow from the end of the fingerboard towards the bridge while increasing bow pressure. With a fine instrument, there will be a huge change in the color of sound and volume. The viola must not choke when you play fff near the bridge. Avoid hollow, unfocused sound. The sound must have a clear core to project in the concert hall. If the sound is hollow it will not project well and when playing quick passages, the notes should be heard clearly. The sound must be clean and ring without fuzz when notes are played in tune. Clarity is closely linked to response; you will only have clarity if the response is very quick. The sound must start the instant the bow touches the string, otherwise the notes will mix in quick passages. A fine viola will ring and ring. Check all harmonics you can. Without a lively sound the viola will be uninteresting from beginning to end. Check the instrument in the upper regions of the C and G strings. You may not be using the 7th positions of the C string now, but as you start studying more difficult pieces, you will have to do that. Only fine violas will sound good in high positions of the C string. In general, there will be many wolves (aka false notes) there. Playing comfort is not only related to the size of the viola. Some things like string length, upper bouts width, rib height, weight, feeling "under the chin", neck thickness and width will also have a huge influence on playing comfort. Forget the idea that “the bigger, the better”. Get a viola that is comfortable to play and will not cause you physical problems in the future.
Stephen Fine Posted October 3 Report Posted October 3 8 hours ago, lvlagneto said: Do you find yourself avoiding wolf areas of the instrument by changing fingering, or you physically counter the wolf with bowing/technique? My instruments are awesome and don't have prominent wolves. It happens to me now on my students' instruments. And, no, I don't change the fingerings to avoid them. I imagine if I located a wolf bad enough I would maybe have mercy on the student, but probably not. The only way to learn to play with a wolf is to play with a wolf. Playing "through" it is one way of description, but you mention countering it with "bowing/technique" and that sparked in me the idea that it's also a matter of playing in that register the way the particular violin "wants" to be played.
Shadow_ Posted October 3 Author Report Posted October 3 2 hours ago, MANFIO said: Many students get their instruments while they are not playing in these regions. The problem is noticed only when the student starts to face more difficult pieces. And then he will say "my violin was good and became bad later". That is not true, the problem was there since the very beginning. I wrote this many years ago, my two cents about choosing a good viola, but applied to violins and cellos too. CHOOSING A GOOD VIOLA High level viola technique makes sense only on a fine instrument. With a good viola, you will not need to work so hard to make music. During an audition, you and your viola will be evaluated, so, the sooner you partner up with a good instrument, the better. Avoid monochrome-sounding instruments. With a good viola you can work with the bow to create various colors, passion and drama. And you can only achieve that through a generous dynamic range that allows you to play from ppp to fff. With most violas you may change your bowing speed and pressure yet almost nothing happens, which is not desirable and can be frustrating. A good test is to draw your bow from the end of the fingerboard towards the bridge while increasing bow pressure. With a fine instrument, there will be a huge change in the color of sound and volume. The viola must not choke when you play fff near the bridge. Avoid hollow, unfocused sound. The sound must have a clear core to project in the concert hall. If the sound is hollow it will not project well and when playing quick passages, the notes should be heard clearly. The sound must be clean and ring without fuzz when notes are played in tune. Clarity is closely linked to response; you will only have clarity if the response is very quick. The sound must start the instant the bow touches the string, otherwise the notes will mix in quick passages. A fine viola will ring and ring. Check all harmonics you can. Without a lively sound the viola will be uninteresting from beginning to end. Check the instrument in the upper regions of the C and G strings. You may not be using the 7th positions of the C string now, but as you start studying more difficult pieces, you will have to do that. Only fine violas will sound good in high positions of the C string. In general, there will be many wolves (aka false notes) there. Playing comfort is not only related to the size of the viola. Some things like string length, upper bouts width, rib height, weight, feeling "under the chin", neck thickness and width will also have a huge influence on playing comfort. Forget the idea that “the bigger, the better”. Get a viola that is comfortable to play and will not cause you physical problems in the future. The violin I am using is by an award-winning luthier, at around $10 to 20k range, is it still inevitable to have this problem on violins at this level? I understand it might still be far away from those top-notch instruments though
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