Indicators of violin age

[AaronS76]

So I was thinking so was getting me head around attributes of violins and how they indicate an instruments age. Scroll graft, shimmed fingerboard and also a through neck. 
 

I was just looking at a violin on Cozio by Widhalm (I found the previous thread of Jacob’s on this maker or line of makers) that was made late 18th century that doesn’t have a through neck or it at least appears the neck is recessed into the block. I was under the impression that violins prior to mid 19th century’s (or so) were through necks. Is this not the case then? What have I misunderstood? Thanks

 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

probably a neck graft if its real

[baroquecello]

This is my understanding if the matter, but I'm just an amateur in violin history. The mortised neck seems to have evolved in the second half of the 18th century. Before that, the other main way of attaching the neck was glueing the neck onto the ribs, which were glued onto a top block, through which a nail or multiple nails were driven. This was the prevalent method in Cremona, for instance. The main reason for the development of the mortised neck is that it can more easily be repaired than the through neck or the nailed neck (without opening the violin). The violin on the picture was likely repaired and no longer has its original neck.

[Gtone]

Aaron the neck has been changed on that violin and sometimes a graft doesn't indicate age,it can.Also a scroll can be changed to one from a similar style or whole neck.Jacob can say if the Cozio example ,you gave, is Widhalm or not.Maybe include a link..

 

[AaronS76]

54 minutes ago, Gtone said:

Aaron the neck has been changed on that violin and sometimes a graft doesn't indicate age,it can.Also a scroll can be changed to one from a similar style or whole neck.Jacob can say if the Cozio example ,you gave, is Widhalm or not.Maybe include a link..

 

Good idea with the link. This is to Leopold I violins. Multiple there with similar necks. 

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/browse-the-archive/makers/maker/?Maker_ID=824
 

The reason I ask is that a friend of a friend is selling an “old violin that was used by a professional musician”. In a country Australian town that means little. I got some pictures and thought it wasn’t that old based on the neck. Then I looked up the maker and became very confused because multiple violins from Widhalm don’t seem to have a through neck. 

[Gtone]

Yes, they have been probably been changed to modern neck angles,if done correctly.Best showing it to someone to ID it or even post on the board for some help.

[Michael Appleman]

You have to be aware that different schools of making used different methods. Through necks were common on violins made with the "BOB" or built on the back without a mold method, which was common in places like Markneukirchen, and used on both higher quality and cheaper violins from Saxony right through the middle of the 19th century.

Widhalm was from a different tradition, and was working in Nuremburg, using an offshoot of the Cremonese method with an inside mold and (probably) a nailed-on neck. As these were higher quality vioiins from the start, most will have been "modernized" with a morticed neck and a neck graft by now, like the one in the picture from Cozio, unlike the meny cheaper Saxon violins that might still be sporting their original through necks. 

[AaronS76]

Thanks Gtone and Michael. Very informative.

They are not the best photos but nevertheless here they are. I’ll be there next weekend so might go and have a look anyway. Worthwhile experience either way.  
 

Actually more interested in looking at bows these days. 
 

[Gtone]

Yes,please wait for a more qualified person than I to ID ,

but I think no to Widhalm and probably a screwdriver antiqued Saxon arbeit.

[jacobsaunders]

2 hours ago, Gtone said:

Yes,please wait for a more qualified person than I to ID ,

but I think no to Widhalm and probably a screwdriver antiqued Saxon arbeit.

I must compliment Gtone on his violin expertize

[Gtone]

Just been listening to you Maestro