Becoming a luthier at 40?

[Birchcover]

Long story short; nearing 40, I am at a point in my career and life where I feel comfortable to try to pursue a thirty year interest in violin making. I have a flexible job and would like to learn and build my skills over time. From there, I would try to decide if transitioning from hobbyist to professional would be feasible. 
 

I have a family and my wife’s job would require us to stay where we are. We cannot move to a city where there is a formal violin making school, nor are we close enough for me to commute.  Locally, there is one luthier who has no interest in taking on an apprentice, helper, observer, etc.   There is a shop that rents, repairs, and sells new violins. I asked, and the proprietor does not make new instruments. It also sounded like he wasn’t interested in taking anyone into his shop.  
 

Is there any way to pursue my interest?  In college, I had attempted to build a violin from Johnson’s Art of Violin making.  It didn’t have enough detail and I stalled after making the ribs.  I have a copy of Brian Derber’s book which looks like it would have been very helpful 20 years ago.
 

Any help is appreciated.

 

 

 

[Riccardo964]

Sir. Yes, very much possible.

Internet (right sources though) can be your teacher.

Pass the vitriol here and you'll find there are nuggets of wisdom and good advice.

I have the Johnson book - not that great really - good pictures, that's it. Confusing. There are not enough minutiae.

To give you "courage", look this playlist at YT (by Jon Mangum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLVDzn26dTKWeXlVy2rNGjdzTq7ZTZeVRW

--> Now, take his advice with a kilo of salt, as I'm sure many here would be disgusted by his approach. I find it a good first approach, if one does not know how to even begin. His taking on Fiddle making is quite no-nonsense and he uses a lot of McGyverish tools that people here would not advise well, whatever, you do what you want, right?

-----

All in all, use the "How to eat an Elephant" approach - "one bite at a time". Fetch your tools. Fetch your wood. Practice with pine. Make mistakes. Learn. Do it again.

At 40y you're just a very young person. I hope I have encouraged you, as I started with 45y, after a life-long career in Software Engineering that albeit was profitable, it was not as rewarding as violin making.

Hope all the best, sir. Drop me a message here if you like. I wish you all the success.

Riccardo964

[MikeC]

If you haven't build one yet,  I recommend the videos of Davide Sora.   There is a lot of detail in those and he is a master of the craft.   

I have watched Joh Mangum, you may find those helpful.  

There are some paid online instruction,  Edgar Russ for example has a course and also Lucas Fabro.   I have watched some of Fabro's videos he has free videos and also a paid course which is not very expensive and you can buy a chapter at a time vs the entire course at once.  

I am posting videos of my current build. it's not meant to be instructional but just showing the process.  While i do a few things off camera, I try to show the whole process and not omit anything important.  I'm not a pro though, just making number two now and only partway though the build so far.  

  

[Don Noon]

I second the Davide Sora videos.

I made my first violin when I was 57, shortly after I retired early at 55.  Fortunately, there was a (now defunct) violinmaking association in the area, with mostly hobbyists but some modestly experienced makers.  That helped, I think... but the most important thing is to forge ahead and MAKE ONE.  That gives the framework to understand what's going on.

Making violins is the easy part.  SELLING them, at least at a price and volume sufficient to live off of... that's the hard part.

[Andrew Victor]

A personal friend of mine (a mechanical engineer by profession) started making violins in his 40s when he felt unsuccessful at playing them. He is now 88 and says he has made his last one. He made 86 violins, 12 violas and 3 cellos during that "hobby" career. He also became his small city's luthier doing repairs and even bow rehairing for the public - including the schools.

I bought 2 of the violins (his #11 and later #54) and one of the violas he made (his #6 viola). In addition, in 1990 he made major repairs to an old (1877) cello of mine that still are fine.

I should add that he sold all the instruments he made EXCEPT for the FIRST one that he had given to his teenage violin teacher, which she returned for a later one, and his LAST. So he has kept his "book marks."

https://www.postsouth.com/story/news/local/2013/08/02/violins-bring-people-together/44395471007/

[JacksonMaberry]

I want to emphasize what Don has said. It is very possible to learn to make instruments on your own, especially if you already have some skill at woodworking and have a natural knack for autodidaction. 

The Brian Derber book is dazzlingly detailed, and will be very useful to you now, not just 20 years ago. Davide Sora's videos are likewise useful, and in my view the most valuable videos on the subject by a wide margin due to their production value, detail, and the fact that they're produced by an actual savant, unlike most of them out there. 

If you don't already know how to sharpen any kind of blade to perfection, that's where you should start first. You will find the work of making substantially less frustrating if you know how to set up your tools. 

What books and videos can't teach you is how to actually see violins. You need to visit and, where possible, handle as many important instruments as possible. When I started I was naively skeptical about the value of that. Now after 8 short years as a professional maker, I'm still learning more and more by handling fiddles by the greats than I ever thought possible. 

And to return to Don's advice - selling them is the hard part, and something that is much harder to learn. Being friendly, humble, thoughtful, persistent, and engaged have been the things that have brought me the most success in sales. Only within the last few years have I been able to truly make a modest living on my instruments and varnishes alone. 

[jacobsaunders]

speaking as someone who made his first violin in 1975 at the age of 16, I am sceptical. Seems a bit like wanting to learn to play the violin at 40. If your wife has a good well paying secure job, it might be better to look after the kids and enjoy yourself pottering around as a dilettante in your spare time

[Matthew_Graesch]

Your situation is nearly IDENTICAL to my own (I am 44 now and began learning the process 5 years ago).  I also have one very talented local maker who is kind and helpful, but does entirely restoration work now, so new making and setup have been a challenge.  There is one local shop that is good, but they are definitely skeptical of someone else around, and are not helpful understandably since the things I want to learn are some of the same things they sell.....makes sense.  

The Derber book is absolutely fantastic, and is the best single reference I have seen.  There are so many good videos on Youtube, and it isn't any substitute for hands on, but you can learn a lot still.  I would highly recommend attending an event like the upcoming Violin Society of America meeting.  I met more helpful people there in a couple days last year than in the preceding four years of working essentially alone.  

I would be more than happy to chat about it if you want to send a PM.  I am not doing this work for money to be clear.  As Jacob said, I think if one wants to charge people, then the customer is owed some level of professional knowledge that would be hard to get outside of a school or apprentice environment.  

Hope to hear from you.

Matt

[Riccardo964]

Brian Derber's book is $375. It's an investment, everyone talking about it, but I would buy tone wood worth $375 and practice with what I have available to me instead...

[JacksonMaberry]

31 minutes ago, Riccardo964 said:

Brian Derber's book is $375. It's an investment, everyone talking about it, but I would buy tone wood worth $375 and practice with what I have available to me instead...

Not the worst advice, but since he already has the Derber book it's a moot point.

Personally, I would still suggest the serious self-teaching student buy Derber's book and use simple, inexpensive wood to develop their skills.

Using great wood on your first 10 or so instruments is kind of wasteful, especially considering how many fantastic sounding instruments have been made by the greats of the past using what looks like cutoffs from fenceposts. 

[Jerry Alberson]

Sounds like to me that you have a very good opportunity to pursue your passion in making violins and see where it leads you. I bought my tools at age 30 while I was still working, and got started building violins with Henry A.Strobel‘s books. I just retired a year ago at age 56 and I am having the time of my life. My message to you is to encourage you to not let your age stop you from pursuing your passion.

[Michael Richwine]

Learn to understand what a violin is and what it's supposed to do. So many makers make a pretty good violin that doesn't in truth perform much better than a $1000 Chinese violin, and that level of violin with a good setup takes some real skill to beat, these days. Know your market. Learn to play well enough to relate to your customers, or forget about ever selling a violin. competition is formidable.

[Chris Anderson, PhD]

I am in a similar situation - I inherited most of my books and tools and have spent the last couple of years learning by trial and error.  I have a collection of old German instruments that I'm restoring and a few 'lost causes' from my local school that were too costly to repair.  These are great opportunities for 'practice' - because they are destined for the trash anyway and having something 'in-your-hands' that was made by a Luthier can be a helpful reference. 

 The information is out there - some basic woodworking skills are very helpful when starting out.  But if I hadn't inherited most of my workshop, woodworking in any capacity is an expensive hobby. I second Mr. Alberson's recommendation of the 'Strobel' books.  If you would like other recommendations on some books to 'start out', PM me and I can give you recommendations on 'good' and 'bad'.  You should avoid the Heron-Allen book, and there are several other dated texts in the public domain.  Wake's books can be hit-or-miss.  (I tried to follow his plans for 'Bass' - and eventually abandoned it - its obvious that he didn't make an upright bass.  There are also several sites that will provide PDF plans for a starting point - including 'the Strad'.   Also note - as a hobbyist - I have yet to sell an instrument.   Mostly, I have been helping maintain student instruments and my own daughter's instruments as she has grown.  Then I got to the 'varnishing' step in completing several instruments and my notes on varnish making have dominated my attention the last year. 

-Chris Anderson, PhD

[Sean Couch]

I am currently varnishing violin #1. All I can say is I wish I started sooner. In my early 50’s, I was terminated during covid and never got another job. I stumbled across some violin making videos on YouTube and figured I would give it a go. I needed a good project and I am already thinking about and started designing violin #2. I was on the fence about making a violin since I had never played or held one. I made the correct decision. Making a violin has been a fantastic journey.

Take advantage of that job flexibility and start now. Parallel path your current career with violin making. My biggest expense was in the tools. I didn’t have much of anything for wood working since most of my making experience was from forging Damascus knives, pens, and jewelry.

I have learned by watching videos, asking questions here in the forums, looking at the build threads in the contemporary makers section, and spending many hours searching and reading on the internet. I haven’t bought any books or had any in person teaching. I learned how to make pattern welded steel by buying VHS tapes and some books. There wasn’t much of an internet back in 1998, well, not much of a connection to the internet anyway, just dial up. ahaha

I keep mentioning the knife making experience because I turned that hobby into a job and ended up hating it. It was great while I was making what I wanted, when I wanted. Once I started taking deposits and making what other people wanted, when they wanted it, the passion and fun were destroyed.

You owe it to yourself to scratch that 30 year itch. Make one. If you like the work and process, make more. If you end up making a living at it, and enjoy it, all the better. If you don’t like it, find something else you might enjoy and try that. I figured that it was a low risk adventure for me, and I don’t have a job or wife to help support my hobbies.

[Birchcover]

Thank you all very much for your responses.  I've been enjoying reading them as they have come in throughout the day.  Please keep them coming as they are very encouraging and are giving me a lot to think about. 

Most of the threads I have read in the past were directed at younger people with suggestions of schools or apprenticeships.  Some threads have also suggested starting with repairing instruments first.  Is there any benefit to repairing instruments first?

As for me, I have some basic tools and a rib bender which I bought about twenty years ago.  Also, I played the violin extensively, before ending my double major in music because it conflicted with my other major.  It has been too long since I have played seriously. 

Thank you again for all of your insight and please keep it coming.  There is a lot to digest.

 

 

[HoGo]

17 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

speaking as someone who made his first violin in 1975 at the age of 16, I am sceptical. Seems a bit like wanting to learn to play the violin at 40. If your wife has a good well paying secure job, it might be better to look after the kids and enjoy yourself pottering around as a dilettante in your spare time

I know a few luthiers who learned violin making at 15-16 that I wouldn't let work on my "the usual".

I am Math/IT teacher and amateur (or dilettante in Jacobs vocabulary) mandolin maker in my spare time. I learned all from

• my mistakes on lots of cheap instruments and cheap wood
• some books from library
• internet (after it became available)

I've made 20 instruments so far that are in hands of musicians in EU and US and other musicians from around world ask me for future builds and are willing to pay reasonable price for one that may be available in the future. Local musicians also seek me for repairs of their mandolins and guitars even though I don't offer such services. I'm pretty sure I could make a career as sole builder of new instruments and my friends always ask me when I jump on that train.

I never learned a thing from direct contact with living luthier in school or workshop and still there are folks in the trade who respect my work and even ask me for advice.

So in my opinion everything is possible, all depends on person who learns. I've got many students who learned programming in their spare time to a nearly pro level just from books/ internet sources and LOTS OF time spent effectively training the skills. Same applies to virtually any other craft including luthiery - it ain't no rocket science.

One has to be able to judge his abilities and progress when learning the craft from books or online sources that can contain lots of misinformation.

PS: I just started learning to play violin and I'm well over 40 !

[FiddleDoug]

"Some threads have also suggested starting with repairing instruments first.  Is there any benefit to repairing instruments first? "

I started as a luthier very late in life, concentrating on repairing and restoring instruments. First thing: Repairing and restoring instruments is totally different than making them!! I've been attending violin restoration workshops at MCLA for many years. We often have violin makers (from the North Bennet St. School) attend the restoration workshops for that exact reason.

If you do go the restoration route, make sure that you get the proper resources and education to do it properly!

If you go the making route, I would suggest that you take your instruments to other very good makers for critique. Pay attention to what they point out, and suggestions that they make.

I would also suggest that you have very good players play your instruments. If they enjoy playing your instruments, they will let you know.

[HoGo]

There are basic skills that can be honed on restoration projects and for DIY guy getting reasonably wrecked "projects" from evilbay and then selling them after repairs can be eventually source for some money to buy new tools etc. (you won't be profitable as  a pro but you do this for learning which is priceless). But remember not to work on others' instruments unless you are 100% confident in your ability and prepared to pay if things go wrong. Often DIY restorers/builders tend to overestimate their ability and pass mediocre work which certainly can stop any hopes for future career as luthier. Restoration also brings access to larger pool of instruments to test and learn from - important is to train one's ability to judge quality of instruments both build quality and its tone and trying to figure out how the build specs influence tonal result and playability, not to mention fine adjustments that are absolutely necessary for builder of new instruments as well. Every bit of woodwork is chance to learn and gain experience if one has eyes and ears wide open.

The high end restoration is where most of the special techniques appear that ane not essential for building new instruments.

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, HoGo said:

I just started learning to play violin and I'm well over 40

I'm sure that you are a genius

[HoGo]

4 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

sure that you are a genius

No way! I was just clever enough to wait till I become deaf enough to withstand my own fiddling efforts .

Small children starting on violin are blessed that they cannot yet recognise how far out of tune their screeching is.

 

[Don Noon]

I worked on junkers for many years before attempting to make one from scratch.  I wouldn't say "repaired" so much as "experimented on", as my focus was to see/hear how variations in graduations translated into tone.  I think that's an efficent way to get a concept of what you want to do in order to get the tone character you want.  It helps to get overly thick student instruments to regraduate, rather than ones that are already too thin.

[Riccardo964]

34 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

It helps to get overly thick student instruments to regraduate, rather than ones that are already too thin.

That's a very good tip, thanks Don Noon. I will have my eye set on junk and trash-ready instruments from now on.

Riccardo964

[violinnewb]

Wut? 

40 is the new 5.  That is what my wife says.

Actually, what she says to me is: "why is it that a 40 year old man acts like a 5 year old child?"

[JacksonMaberry]

14 hours ago, Birchcover said:

Is there any benefit to repairing instruments first?

I think you'll get a couple perspectives on this. 

When I was starting out a little over 10 years ago, I asked David Kerr in Portland for advice. First, he told me to drop everything and go to the Cremona School. At 22, and with my life circumstances at the time, that wasn't in the cards, but I appreciated the sentiment.

Secondly he told me to consider what exactly I wanted to do in lutherie - he asked "do you want to make, restore, or deal? Choose one and pursue it completely, without ever stopping to second guess your choice. Don't rest until you're the best."

I chose making and have never forgotten his admonishment. I'm far from the best yet, but I'm going to keep trying. It helps being able to look at great instruments of the past and get advice from the best makers of today. I was just getting critique from Sam Zygmuntowicz last week, and it was unbelievably valuable.

Left to right: Sam Zygmuntowicz, Jackson Maberry (me), MJ Kwan. I have a long way to go, but thanks to them I have a good idea of how to get closer. 

Good luck!

 

[Matthew_Graesch]

I would echo two things that have been said here......do absolutely everything you can to handle (not just view, but HANDLE) as many really good fiddles as you can.  There is just no substitute for HOLDING a great violin and seeing/feeling all the fine details that make it better than average.  The second is to seek critique.  I always humbly try to make it clear to the person when I show my work to someone more experienced, that I am not looking for affirmation, but looking for suggestions on things I can improve on.  This is much more valuable I think.