American (?) Beauty

[Guido]

Had this violin for the better part of a decade; on and off looking for comparables w/o success.

A quality piece of kit, internal mould, willow blocks and linings, half-cut pins, the works.

Inscriptions lead me to be believe it might be American, especially the way the numbers 1 and 7 are written.

The inscription under the fingerboard reads: no.112 // 1937 // Strad copy

The inscription by the lower block I have not figured out yet. Maybe initials as there are also two dots.

Any ideas who may have made this would be much appreciated.

[nathan slobodkin]

Interesting looking violin. Could just be my coal fired computer but your pictures are so dark I can't see much.

[Guido]

1 minute ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Interesting looking violin. Could just be my coal fired computer but your pictures are so dark I can't see much.

You are right about my photo skills. The more light I shine at the violin the more the iphone adjusts the expose and produces a dark picture.

[Guido]

Think I found the manual override 

[Guido]

Bump.

If this is American, it's probably neither an import nor folk art.

Shouldn't our American colleagues be all over this?

[jacobsaunders]

Are the English 1s and 7s the only reason you speculate that it could be American? 

[Guido]

45 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Are the English 1s and 7s the only reason you speculate that it could be American? 

Mostly, but also the "Stad copy" seems of an English speaking origin.

Do you think it could be from England?

[jacobsaunders]

15 minutes ago, Guido said:

"Stad copy" seems of an English speaking origin.

 

I read "Strad copy" on the fingerboard, although I can't tell if the same person who made the fingerboard made the violin

[jacobsaunders]

16 minutes ago, Guido said:

 

Do you think it could be from England?

I have no idea where it is from

[Sammyo]

Looks like same handwriting though.  The 3 and the 7 are both quite distinctive.

[M Alpert]

Definitely looks like the same handwriting... that other inscription might be key. Looks like B...

Looks like a really pro-made instrument, though I don't know why it couldn't be English. Is it in America? Any history known?

[jacobsaunders]

While, with instruments from the 18^th or even 19^th C, one has a good chance of sorting out some regionally characteristic differences which allow one to narrow things down, with instruments from 1937 (assuming that is when it was made), made by a good individual somewhere, its practically impossible. Why American (probably unlightly), Why not Hungarian or Russian or something completely different

[Hempel]

6 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

While, with instruments from the 18^th or even 19^th C, one has a good chance of sorting out some regionally characteristic differences which allow one to narrow things down, with instruments from 1937 (assuming that is when it was made), made by a good individual somewhere, its practically impossible. Why American (probably unlightly), Why not Hungarian or Russian or something completely different

Since the inscriptions are written in English, American (or British) maker/assembler would be a valid point to start.  It's like that old adage medical doctors like to use, "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras (Hungarians or Russians)."

[GoPractice]

The photo of the button might be revealing.

What are the dimensions?

[Guido]

43 minutes ago, GoPractice said:

The photo of the button might be revealing.

What are the dimensions?

LOB is 356

[Guido]

7 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

While, with instruments from the 18^th or even 19^th C, one has a good chance of sorting out some regionally characteristic differences which allow one to narrow things down, with instruments from 1937 (assuming that is when it was made), made by a good individual somewhere, its practically impossible. Why American (probably unlightly), Why not Hungarian or Russian or something completely different

Indeed it could be anything. Scandinavia or South America, Eastern Europe.

In fact, when I initially got the violin I was mostly looking towards Eastern Europe, but mainly the "Strad copy" and "1" and "7" makes me favour the US as an hypothesis.

The frustrating thing is that the violin has distinctive features in spades, for instance the central half cut pins or the way the linings are let into the corner blocks (which I have actually not seen quite like that anywhere else). Another thing I forgot to mention is that the internal surfaces have had some sort of sealer applied, which is quite noticeable in the photos as it tends to stay away from gluing surfaces.

[Guido]

8 hours ago, M Alpert said:

Definitely looks like the same handwriting... that other inscription might be key. Looks like B...

Yes, I have some hopes here, but couldn't decipher. There are also a couple of dots, which could make this initials; but then again, it seems to continue in lower case after the B.

[Guido]

Here is a 1930 from London. Similar downstroke to start the 3.

Been flicking though my copy of "The British Violin" a few times, too, but not much is represented in the book from the relevant time.

[Andreas Preuss]

With this kind of instrument I always try the exclusion method to narrow down possibilities:

Not French or German or a maker trained there.

in 1937 there was not abundant photo material about Stradivaris instruments available, so this maker had gathered some material: he knew that Strad didn’t use spruce for blocks and linings, he knew that linings were inserted in the blocks (just not exactly the way how), he even knew that Strads purfling covered the pins half and were joined right there on a45 angle. This excludes for me all the pure amateur makers of that period. However certain features look like rather ‘sanded down’ style of work hinting to a quick making method. Also the f holes seem to be set rather low.(?)

Having completed 112 instruments by 1937 I’d place the birth year roughly between 1860 and 1890. 

The maker didn’t find it either necessary to sign his instrument or wasn’t allowed to do it. I would personally opt for the first and think that he was a single maker in a smaller township providing the area with instruments. 

i am also wondering why the maker found it necessary to write under the fingerboard the number and model. There is a chance that the maker worked simultaneously on at least two instruments and he didn’t want to mix up fingerboards for them. 

One might also wonder why he mentioned Strad copy. The fact that you couldn’t find comparable instruments is probably due to the fact that he didn’t make exclusively Strad  copies. (Maybe mostly Guarneri?)

The linings from the bouts seem to be inserted pointed in the corner blocks which is indeed a quite unusual feature and could give a final clue.

Checking on the apocryphal inscription starting with ‘B’ I found in Weinbergs book Dr. Wallace Belt where data approximately matches: born in 1857, became a professional maker in 1903, started making after WW 1 in Dodge Center completing with machine aid c. 150 violins.  Might worth a shot to find comparable instruments. 
 

Otherwise violin makers of Canada seem to me a completely white map. 

[Guido]

1 hour ago, Andreas Preuss said:

With this kind of instrument I always try the exclusion method to narrow down possibilities:

Not French or German or a maker trained there.

in 1937 there was not abundant photo material about Stradivaris instruments available, so this maker had gathered some material: he knew that Strad didn’t use spruce for blocks and linings, he knew that linings were inserted in the blocks (just not exactly the way how), he even knew that Strads purfling covered the pins half and were joined right there on a45 angle. This excludes for me all the pure amateur makers of that period. However certain features look like rather ‘sanded down’ style of work hinting to a quick making method. Also the f holes seem to be set rather low.(?)

Having completed 112 instruments by 1937 I’d place the birth year roughly between 1860 and 1890. 

The maker didn’t find it either necessary to sign his instrument or wasn’t allowed to do it. I would personally opt for the first and think that he was a single maker in a smaller township providing the area with instruments. 

i am also wondering why the maker found it necessary to write under the fingerboard the number and model. There is a chance that the maker worked simultaneously on at least two instruments and he didn’t want to mix up fingerboards for them. 

One might also wonder why he mentioned Strad copy. The fact that you couldn’t find comparable instruments is probably due to the fact that he didn’t make exclusively Strad  copies. (Maybe mostly Guarneri?)

The linings from the bouts seem to be inserted pointed in the corner blocks which is indeed a quite unusual feature and could give a final clue.

Checking on the apocryphal inscription starting with ‘B’ I found in Weinbergs book Dr. Wallace Belt where data approximately matches: born in 1857, became a professional maker in 1903, started making after WW 1 in Dodge Center completing with machine aid c. 150 violins.  Might worth a shot to find comparable instruments. 
 

Otherwise violin makers of Canada seem to me a completely white map. 

Thanks Andreas. I love that kind of reasoning. I find it fun and I'll end up learning something new and unexpected in some otherwise useless rabbit hole. I too excluded French and German and all that goes with it, which is A LOT!

I can't turn up any of Belt's work, but I would doubt that the violin goes back to a self-taught career changer (unless they are a dentist ;-) It really looks rather professional.

So with the lack of signing the instrument by name (unless it's the B....) and the tagging of the fingerboard to belong to a certain violin, I'd rather speculate to a larger workshop setting. Along the lines of: the violin had a generic Lewis and Son shop label and was made by one of their workmen. The label was removed by a dealer who wanted to avoid the confusion with the imported trade violins usually bearing such a label. There is, btw, a very clear outline of a former label in the colour of the wood. I'm attaching a picture.

[Guido]

2 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Otherwise violin makers of Canada seem to me a completely white map. 

Don't you think it could be English? I'm starting to like that idea.

Btw, I checked and pretty much excluded Australia.

[Dr. Mark]

Is/Was it standard practice to chop off the corner block short towards the C-bout, glue in the C lining, then glue an extension strip back onto the block and over the lining, and shape it?  That seems to be how it was done .

[Andreas Preuss]

16 hours ago, Guido said:

Don't you think it could be English? I'm starting to like that idea.

Btw, I checked and pretty much excluded Australia.

For countries and even for age estimates (if there is no date in any form) both can be extremely tricky starting from the 19th century. With more violin makers moving around the globe and makers not following the latest trend, ‘time’ and ‘space’ become a sort of distorted. So I try as good as possible just to bracket out such thoughts. 
 

The biggest problem in expertise is the human mind. Our mind is not designed to think of something you haven’t seen or heard before. So using this resource on something you definitely haven’t seen before puts us in serious trouble. We start instinctively to pull things from our memory in order to construct a logic even if it doesn’t have anything to do with the reality. Eventually it can happen (al least we are all human) that some me sort of logic looks convincing to more than one person. 
 

Edit: I think that a refined exclusion method can bring better results than ‘guessing around’ because you need to find specific reasons (observations from the instrument itself) to knock out certain schools of violin making. Also, when makers started to acquire wood from whatever source, dendrochronolical examinations are less efficient.

 

Edited September 19, 2024 by Andreas Preuss
Addition

[Andreas Preuss]

8 hours ago, Guido said:

can't turn up any of Belt's work, but I would doubt that the violin goes back to a self-taught career changer (unless they are a dentist ;-) It really looks rather professional.

No idea either what sort of violins came from Belts shop. Though the attribute of a self taught maker puts question marks, it is also possible that Belt acquired instruments somewhere varnished them with his own varnish and claimed authorship for that. (Not uncommon) 

But as you mention a removed Lewis and Sons label, I’d say that seems a better path following. So it would be necessary to check on employees of the shop.

[Guido]

3 hours ago, Dr. Mark said:

Is/Was it standard practice to chop off the corner block short towards the C-bout, glue in the C lining, then glue an extension strip back onto the block and over the lining, and shape it?  That seems to be how it was done .

Looking at the photo above I can see what you mean. But the blocks are of one piece - there is no joint running down the surface facing the inside of the violin. In the photo above there is also a line continuing in the direction of the lining. I think they might be marking traces for the cut-out.