outofnames Posted September 14, 2024 Report Posted September 14, 2024 After taking up the violin about 8 years ago and taking lessons with my same teacher all this time, I finally did about a year of beginner ensemble class. It was good but difficult for me at first. My teacher thought it led to marked improvement in my playing and also got me to start using a metronome for practice. This autumn I am taking a leap and joining a community orchestra (the no audition type). My teacher has been pushing me to do so for a while now. i finally sat in last week and, oh boy, this will not be easy. This is not orchestra class, this is please take a seat so we can start playing. One of the other second violins with experience has offered to be my stand partner as I told her about my difficulties in following along with where we are in the music. Both my teacher and my daughter (who was the principal flutist in our city youth orchestra) told me just suck it up and jump in, that I’ll learn by doing. I sure hope so, the experience is obviously very different from the fun duet playing I do with my teacher. Any advice? Prior to violin I played nothing so music theory and experience are zero.
matesic Posted September 14, 2024 Report Posted September 14, 2024 We've all been there! I'm afraid there are no short-cuts.
Altgeiger Posted September 14, 2024 Report Posted September 14, 2024 "Jump in and do it" is good advice. Another is, "Keep a good eye on the people in front of you." Conductor, section leader, stronger players, they all are there to help you stay on track with the ensemble. Memorize the hard parts, if you can, so you can spare attention to what's going on around you. Also listen to the music you're rehearsing over and over until you always know what's coming next. That will help you figure out how your part fits in. It's hard to learn to play in an orchestra, but you'll be glad you took the trouble.
Victor Roman Posted September 14, 2024 Report Posted September 14, 2024 7 hours ago, outofnames said: After taking up the violin about 8 years ago and taking lessons with my same teacher all this time, I finally did about a year of beginner ensemble class. It was good but difficult for me at first. My teacher thought it led to marked improvement in my playing and also got me to start using a metronome for practice. This autumn I am taking a leap and joining a community orchestra (the no audition type). My teacher has been pushing me to do so for a while now. i finally sat in last week and, oh boy, this will not be easy. This is not orchestra class, this is please take a seat so we can start playing. One of the other second violins with experience has offered to be my stand partner as I told her about my difficulties in following along with where we are in the music. Both my teacher and my daughter (who was the principal flutist in our city youth orchestra) told me just suck it up and jump in, that I’ll learn by doing. I sure hope so, the experience is obviously very different from the fun duet playing I do with my teacher. Any advice? Prior to violin I played nothing so music theory and experience are zero. My advice would be to NOT join an orchestra or basically any ensemble where your skills are stretched to "oh boy, this will not be easy". In other words "just suck it up and jump in" is exactly what you should not do. Playing above your average technical and musical abilities will only degrade your technique and corrupt your ear because in an orchestra listening to yourself is... marginally difficult. Inability to listen to oneself is the number one main reason for failing to improve violin playing. It is mostly learned and can be easily forgotten. There is a huge amount of easy repertoire ( duets, trios, quartets, sonatas etc ) you might want to cut your teeth in, before joining an orchestra.
crazy jane Posted September 14, 2024 Report Posted September 14, 2024 It would be good to get a quartet of players from your orchestra together regularly--not only to work through tricky passages in the orchestra music but also to work on reading small ensemble literature with goal of improving ensemble, rhythm, and intonation. In addition to improving your reading skills, it's a lot of fun and not terribly painful. Practicing with a metronome as well as a recording device of some sort will also provide you with a more objective perspective on the preparation work you're doing. But don't just be self-critical (which is self-defeating); work on applying what you learn from listening. Most of all, enjoy yourself!
matesic Posted September 15, 2024 Report Posted September 15, 2024 If not now, when? The greatest fringe benefit of joining an orchestra is that the experience acquired will open social doors for you the rest of your life. Almost all my best friends (and co-conspirators in chamber music) have been met through orchestras.
outofnames Posted September 15, 2024 Author Report Posted September 15, 2024 To be fair, if I was concerned about jumping blindly into something only to suck at first I never would have started playing the violin in the first place. That’s the challenge of starting as an adult. Making the decision yourself rather than a parent making it for you.
Altgeiger Posted September 15, 2024 Report Posted September 15, 2024 (edited) 16 hours ago, Victor Roman said: Playing above your average technical and musical abilities will only degrade your technique and corrupt your ear I don't think this is necessarily true. It depends on how you practice in between rehearsals; if your practice is good, stretching your musical and technical horizons is beneficial. I'm trusting that the teacher in this case is competent to decide how much is too much, which I recognize is not always the case. Besides, one's first experience in an orchestra, especially in adulthood when your self-expectations are higher, is bound to be a bit overwhelming until you get used to how you integrate yourself into such a large ensemble. No amount of chamber music is adequate preparation, though it does help. Assuming the teacher is assessing the level of the student and the orchestra correctly, throwing yourself in until you get the hang of it is necessary, and going to be fine. This is also a student who started as an adult, and I think the goals are a bit different. They will probably never achieve the level of sensitivity you are talking about, and would lose a lot, musically and personally, if they delayed playing in an orchestra until their technique was up to every last passage of every work they will play. They might never reach that point. Edited September 15, 2024 by Altgeiger More ideas! More argument!
Victor Roman Posted September 15, 2024 Report Posted September 15, 2024 32 minutes ago, Altgeiger said: I don't think this is necessarily true. It depends on how you practice in between rehearsals; if your practice is good, stretching your musical and technical horizons is beneficial. I'm trusting that the teacher in this case is competent to decide how much is too much, which I recognize is not always the case. Besides, one's first experience in an orchestra, especially in adulthood when your self-expectations are higher, is bound to be a bit overwhelming until you get used to how you integrate yourself into such a large ensemble. No amount of chamber music is adequate preparation, though it does help. Assuming the teacher is assessing the level of the student and the orchestra correctly, throwing yourself in until you get the hang of it is necessary, and going to be fine. This is also a student who started as an adult, and I think the goals are a bit different. They will probably never achieve the level of sensitivity you are talking about, and would lose a lot, musically and personally, if they delayed playing in an orchestra until their technique was up to every last passage of every work they will play. They might never reach that point. I can understand your perspective and sure, you could be right provided it is all supervised by a good teacher and practiced thoroughly and properly.
Victor Roman Posted September 15, 2024 Report Posted September 15, 2024 6 hours ago, matesic said: If not now, when? The greatest fringe benefit of joining an orchestra is that the experience acquired will open social doors for you the rest of your life. Almost all my best friends (and co-conspirators in chamber music) have been met through orchestras. If I may respectfully ask : are you a professional strings player in a professional orchestra ? The reason I ask is because I find it difficult to figure out whom I am talking to on MN and adjust accordingly.
matesic Posted September 15, 2024 Report Posted September 15, 2024 1 hour ago, Victor Roman said: If I may respectfully ask : are you a professional strings player in a professional orchestra ? The reason I ask is because I find it difficult to figure out whom I am talking to on MN and adjust accordingly. You may. I'm an amateur player with 50 years experience of mostly amateur orchestras in which my most frequent positions are principal second violin or viola. I have no pretensions to technical virtuosity. And yourself?
Victor Roman Posted September 15, 2024 Report Posted September 15, 2024 1 hour ago, matesic said: You may. I'm an amateur player with 50 years experience of mostly amateur orchestras in which my most frequent positions are principal second violin or viola. I have no pretensions to technical virtuosity. And yourself? I went through the usual East European ( Romanian...) training in the 50s and 60s and after that I played in orchestras, including some well known European ones. As a side show I played A LOT of quartet and made a large number of recordings for Radio. And of course, during my school years, the usual recitals and once in a blue moon a concert movement with an orchestra somewhere where they did not know good violin playing or were too polite to tell. The stated intent of the Romanian school at the time I went through it was to produce competent orchestra musicians and teachers. That mean very high standards for solfege and dictee and ... piano. Many of my former colleagues could play piano better than violin....
matesic Posted September 15, 2024 Report Posted September 15, 2024 Thank you. I guess we have rather different (but within context equally valid) perspectives on violin-playing.
outofnames Posted September 15, 2024 Author Report Posted September 15, 2024 Right. I’m not a professional musician nor am I trying to be. Hence the reason I’m sitting in with a no audition orchestra. As my professional circle consists of fellow engineers within the chemicals and technology industry, my only entry point into the realm of music is such an orchestra. There are no schools in my area offering orchestra class for adults and the ensemble class I participated in was dropped this year due to lack of interest. I suppose I could continue solely with weekly lessons with my teacher and do nothing else, or I could take a step forward with the orchestra and see what happens. Not doing something because it’s going to be difficult would have led me down a very disappointing career path indeed.
Andrew Victor Posted September 15, 2024 Report Posted September 15, 2024 "outofnames" I think it depends on how good your sight reading is. That is something you can practice; given access to appropriate music scores. Ask you teacher for soem ideas. I know you can find everything you need to help you for FREE on line at IMSLP.org. The key is to organize the pieces in an appropriate order to help your growtn. I am an amateur violinist (and cellist and violist) who has been playing for 85 years (in ensembles for 75 of those years). My first orchestral exposure was a few months before my 10th birthday (after 5 years of private lessons). Following my 1st lesson at the MSM in New York, my new teacher suggested I try the MSM youth orchestra which would be rehearsing in the same building after lunch. So I got seated at the back of the 2nd violin section and was immediately "left in the dust." I could read the notes but not that fast. And that was that. I continued 30 minute lessons with that teacher (and the hour-long theory class that followed) every Saturday for 2 more years - and then I quit playing for more than a year. We moved from NYC to the Maryland countryside and when as a high school freshman I learned our high school had an orchestra I started practicing the violin again, playing (on my own) everything I could get my hands on and I joined the school orchestra. (also the school band as a wind player). The next year I was made concertmaster, a seat I held 3 years until graduation - and I also started taking private cello lessons just before my sophomore year started. I have been playing in community orchestras, and various chamber ensembles ever since (until 3 months ago when my vision (and the rest of me) became too slow to sightread fast enough). I'm "sharp" enough to know that if I had stayed in the big city I probably would have remained at the back of the 2nd violins. But after moving to a small California city in the middle of the MOJAVE Desert in 1962 I moved through the community orchestra's cello section back to the violins and ended up as concertmaster for 20 years. I bet you can do it too.
David Rosales Posted September 16, 2024 Report Posted September 16, 2024 I'm an amateur but I've played in a few community orchestras. It sounds like you're also taking private lessons currently. You can probably stay in your current orchestra and devote part of your private lessons to learning the parts and then fake the more difficult parts (an essential amateur orchestra member skill if you ask me). You could also have your teacher help you simplify the part by only playing the first note in every group of notes, for example. If it seems like you would need to fake the entire concert program though, you should probably consider a different ensemble. I've noticed that colleges and universities with a music program often have non-music major ensembles and often also allow community members to join. In my experience, the skill level is usually lower than the conventional community orchestras. Hope that helps.
Victor Roman Posted September 16, 2024 Report Posted September 16, 2024 15 hours ago, matesic said: Thank you. I guess we have rather different (but within context equally valid) perspectives on violin-playing. I agree and this is what makes advising the op difficult. Each of us looks at the issue from a personal perspective. What "triggered" me was the op's "difficulties in following along with where we are in the music". My intention was not to dissuade him from eventually joining an orchestra but to gently draw attention to the indisputable fact an adult learns SLOW and forgets FAST. Under the stress of keeping up with others a lot of bad things creep in and one sees this even among professional players in top orchestras. The op spent 8 years learning some violin as an adult and that is a fantastic achievement. Why damage what was learned for the sake of ...socializing ? Andrew Victor's post, encouraging as it might be, helps little as Andrew started violin at 5. That makes a colossal difference. When one starts early a lot of things are so ingrained as to be almost impossible to cause them damage. Almost... Just for the sake of offering you more of my perspective : if the OP would express a desire to tackle some main stream concerto I would have said "Sure, go for it !". Because if one does it right, Russian style, one might not end up playing it but for sure one will learn a lot.
Altgeiger Posted September 16, 2024 Report Posted September 16, 2024 3 hours ago, Victor Roman said: My intention was not to dissuade him from eventually joining an orchestra but to gently draw attention to the indisputable fact an adult learns SLOW and forgets FAST. Under the stress of keeping up with others a lot of bad things creep in and one sees this even among professional players in top orchestras. This is an excellent point, and why I emphasize that it depends on the quality of practice and the teacher having gauged the ability of the student and the difficulty of the repertoire wisely. In the end, we are all making assumptions about a violinist we have not seen and an orchestra we have not heard.
violinnewb Posted September 16, 2024 Report Posted September 16, 2024 I think this is a wonderful idea! Stay in the orchestra. Its a community orchestra. Just as a loose history lesson, Beethoven premiered many of his works using community orchestras, while they may have been pretty good, we simply do not know and should not assume they were on the level of the NY Phil. Here are my thoughts: 1. You are there to learn. You are not learning at the orchestras' expense. Other community members may/are in a similar situation as yourself and you simply don't really know what the true extent of others' musical skills are. If you have a good foundation, second violin is very doable. Be attentitve, have a pencil, listen to the conductor, others in your section, and the ensemble in whole. 2. You are there to make music. You can make music making mistakes. This is seen all of the time, even by professionals. The point is hw well the conductor, musicians, yourself can convey the music. Yeah, yeah, intonation, technique, blah, blah...if you were a member of the LSO or BSO, and you were getting paid gobs of money to do this, don't mess up. But ask yourself, do you get it? The spirit of the music? The director's vision? The composer's intent? This is what you are there for. 3. Some skills have to be learned on the fly. I know too many community orchestra violinists who never learned proper sautille, ricochet, etc. They can still learn the gist of it just enough to convey the musical intent. See number 2, above. 4. Learn the ART OF FAKING. You WILL struggle. You WILL Sweat. You WILL NOT play perfectly. This is par for the course and there are professionals out there who I have heard say these things. There are sections in pieces that have violin runs like they were composed to punish the player. Keep in mind, alot of these are doubled with winds or masked by blaring horns. Simply put, as long as you start and finish with everyone else, the middles stuff can be faked. Also the importance of faking is for self-improvement. Once you understand its okay to fake once in awhile, it will take the anxiety out of things. Once you take out anxiety, you will mature and better understand how to play as many notes as possible. Much of this is a mental game. There are many others in your section. Do you think they are all playing every note perfectly? Most likely not. 5. Make friends. It will surprise you how many people, who you think are doing really well, probably started like you. I can tell you that in the 7 community orchestras I played in, I have met dozens, upon dozens of people, who started like you and are solid orchestral violinists. Talking to these people will make you feel better and help further your skills. Keep in mind though, there are others who may be sizing you up and may not be as friendly. Just stay away from these people. 6. Chamber groups may be a good idea, but may also work the opposite effect. In a quartet, you are exposed as the sole instrumentalist for that part. I find chamber ensembles more nerve racking than orchestral ensembles. The music will vary from easier to much, much harder. Symphonic works, even for first violinists, tend not to have as many notes as smaller chamber works. 7. COUNT, COUNT, COUNT, like crazy. Learn to keep count. 8. Write things down. Tempi, bowings, measure numbers, notes, etc...
outofnames Posted September 16, 2024 Author Report Posted September 16, 2024 Let me add a bit of color. I’m ok playing most of the pieces. The struggle is keeping up with the tempo and accurately counting rests and coming in the right time. Looking at the conductor is a new concept and the only way to learn that is…doing it. More specifically, the second violin part of Jenkins Palladio is near the upper range of my ability while still producing good tone…but the performance tempo is challenging. That piece is mid range of difficulty of what we’re playing. But, for example, Little Drummer Boy at performance tempo I’m ALL good and would love to play 9 times in a row because i feel great about it. On the other hand we have a few pieces that are just the opposite of that. The composition of strings players is other adults who started late like me and took the plunge on orchestra (and are friendly and helpful), and just a couple of very talented younger adults who are playing the first parts and don’t talk to anyone else. Funny how that works.
Zeissica Posted September 16, 2024 Report Posted September 16, 2024 Like most of the others, I encourage you to go ahead with it! After a break when I didn't play for 13 years, I joined a community orchestra at the back of the viola section and started to re-learn how to do it. There are many challenges! One suggestion I didn't see above is to listen to YouTube recordings of the pieces you are working on, and follow along in your part. Learn to look ahead a measure or two, which is what you have to do when playing. This will help train your eyes and your brain. Actually playing will come along the more you do it. Playing in an orchestra is a lot of fun, and the literature is vast and incredible. Plus, you get to make new friends! Be patient with yourself but do the things suggested in the thread and you'll get the hang of it.
violinnewb Posted September 16, 2024 Report Posted September 16, 2024 1 hour ago, outofnames said: More specifically, the second violin part of Jenkins Palladio is near the upper range of my ability while still producing good tone…but the performance tempo is challenging. That piece is mid range of difficulty of what we’re playing. But, for example, Little Drummer Boy at performance tempo I’m ALL good and would love to play 9 times in a row because i feel great about it. There is a Youtube out there that teaches the "necklace technique." Here is the gist of the technique. Take a passage that you need to bring up to tempo. Break up the passage into sections of 4 notes or so. Make sure you can play them in tune and slowly. Then, bring the section up to tempo a little bit at a time. Add the next single not of the next section. Practice those 5 notes in tempo. Then add the next four notes, repeat. This is the way that I practice anyways, but watching someone teach it was pretty cool.
violinnewb Posted September 16, 2024 Report Posted September 16, 2024 2 hours ago, outofnames said: Looking at the conductor is a new concept and the only way to learn that is…doing it. Ah...the conductor. One problem I face with conductors is that they are not all equal. Some beat a good beat but the trick is to learn whether your orchestra plays on the downwards path of the baton or the actual ichtus. My conductor of the main community orchestra that I play with is wonderful and makes us play on the icthus, not the point of the baton at which the down stroke hits bottom. That is tricky.
matesic Posted September 17, 2024 Report Posted September 17, 2024 Sorry, what's the ictus if not the "click" at the bottom of the beat?
GoPractice Posted September 17, 2024 Report Posted September 17, 2024 The beat given, in an orchestra, is very complicated. Playing with any new ensemble is complicated. I can offer at least five examples where the first hour of any rehearsal with a new conductor is a mess. Without malice, the different schools and thoughts can be an issue with conductors and how they should communicate without words. And musicians either watch or they do not with a new or visiting conductor in professional ensembles. I can not tell you how many conductors act surprised when the orchestra is not following them. It is all in the score. There is structure. There are the themes, the development, the coda. ( so as a budding player, learning some of these elements does help. ) Because the points of the beat are not always where they should be. And conductors working with lagging brass might force the outside strings to rush. There is so much to becoming a traffic officer. A better conductor truly desires to communicate. What they know, I don't know. A learned conductor gets you to the end. The artistic conductor will not compromise their vision and some tempos are unrealistic. The ideal conductor keeps both the musicians and the audience happy. And some conductors are bought. Given the time and compensation, I work very hard to deliver the fastest, clearest, most lyrical and best articulated notes possible as intended by any conductor. Honey, the reality might be that there ain't enough money or time. Also trusting the conductor on the day of the performance is also questionable ( even during rehearsals... . ) There was a friend who quoted a television series "trust no one," and it became a joke between us. Making friends, understanding the goals, enjoying the moment, getting past personal anguish are what make us better. If one is lucky enough to find an ensemble willing to accept new players, what could be better. If one is lucky enough to find an ensemble that makes the player better? more knowledgeable? more interested, more supportive? It's like the world is just not big enough sometimes. Then there are the flip sides. Chamber groups originate from such ensembles or from limited playable hours within the week. Still, one needs to meet people. So, make friends and try to keep up. I have this thought that some of the best conductors are string players. It is very likely that even as an incredible wind player - conductor, it is very difficult to make too many artistic suggestions. Most winds are, by nature, playing the best they can. It really is unfair. Jumping in... if one has a heart condition, maybe gradually? The beauty of, and perhaps the muting of some professional ensembles, is what the community orchestra offers the locals. It is not church, but the divisiveness ( egos ) can be problematic. And wind players need homes too. The art is in making the effort and regrouping if one must. Appears you are doing ok.
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