Woodland Posted September 4 Report Share Posted September 4 This morning I received an email from a known American stringed instrument wholesale distributor regarding an upcoming online Zoom session by the "Alliance" regarding potentially increasing restrictions with regards to violin and bow making materials. Here's the registration link if anyone is interested: Alliance Information Sessions | Alliance-International On a side note, I'm curious as to what is likely next with regards to ebony restrictions, in particular Indian ebony. Indian ebony is reportedly in shorter supply than African ebony, and when one tries to seek out current CITES restrictions, the term "data deficient" comes up repeatedly. When that changes, it will be interesting to see what the ramifications will be, particularly within the mass-produced Chinese instrument trade, if they're relying heavily on Indian ebony for fittings as I strongly suspect they may be. Food for thought, register for the Zoom session and let's be vigilant and proactive. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reg Posted September 5 Report Share Posted September 5 Thank you Jay - interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Posted September 7 Author Report Share Posted September 7 On a positive note, this relatively new material looks quite good and sounds promising: https://thermalwoodcanada.com/obsidian-ebony/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonGeo Posted September 8 Report Share Posted September 8 That’s very interesting. I was just chatting with a friend of mine who’s a violin teacher at the Suzuki school of music here in Nova Scotia and she was asking about the ebony fittings for my first build. I told her I probably wasn’t going to get to obsessive about getting it since it is considered endangered and I’d feel terrible if I wrecked a fitting learning how to work it. Since we were kids her family ran a multi generation apple and potato farm and I told her I was considering apple wood.. she asked if it was too soft for the wear and tear the ebony fittings would typically endure… does any one have any insights on apple wood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Posted September 8 Author Report Share Posted September 8 According to the Janka scale, not nearly as hard as ebony. If you're looking for hard North American woods, osage orange (hedge), persimmon (American ebony) or hickory would be very hard. Not sure how well they would hold up against string wear, or how you'd like the wood texture for a fingerboard. Seeing as you're in Canada, the Obsidian Ebony is manufactured in New Brunswick and listed on Etsy. They have actual violin fingerboard "blanks", but you'd essentially be making a fingerboard from scratch (as you would be anyways if you used apple wood): https://www.etsy.com/listing/1696926489/violin-fingerboard-blanks-thermally?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=obsidian+ebony&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&content_source=d9ce346aff9ba2d58b8ca8436b2d9979021a8ce6%3A1696926489&search_preloaded_img=1&organic_search_click=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted September 8 Report Share Posted September 8 The Sonowood compressed beechwood fitting are gaining some traction among makers and repair people, partly because they will supposedly hold well using conventional hot hide glue, since they are not made of plastic resin, nor are they resin infused (like the ThermalWood Obsidian Ebony and some other ebony substitute products). https://www.thestrad.com/accessories/products-november-2021-swiss-wood-solutions-sonowood-black/13770.article They're pretty pricey though compared to some other ebony substitutes. The US distributor: https://www.vermontviolins.com/sonowood/sonowood-fingerboard-nut-amp-saddle-spruce-amp-maple-violin-44-k4xw5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted September 8 Report Share Posted September 8 49 minutes ago, David Burgess said: The Sonowood compressed beechwood fitting are gaining some traction among makers and repair people, partly because they will supposedly hold well using conventional hot hide glue, since they are not made of plastic resin, nor are they resin infused (like the ThermalWood Obsidian Ebony and some other ebony substitute products). https://www.thestrad.com/accessories/products-november-2021-swiss-wood-solutions-sonowood-black/13770.article They're pretty pricey though compared to some other ebony substitutes. The US distributor: https://www.vermontviolins.com/sonowood/sonowood-fingerboard-nut-amp-saddle-spruce-amp-maple-violin-44-k4xw5 For those who like black ,it doesnt look very black to me , plenty of exotic wood alternatives that are blacker than that or could be darkened and arent that pricy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y158sikjSs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCF Posted September 8 Report Share Posted September 8 If you absolutely have to have jet black timber then you will need to stain it even if it is ebony since most ebony has grey, brown or even blue streaks and typically grey medullary ray flecking. In the recent discussion about using Af. Blackwood someone mentioned Katalox as a useful fingerboard wood and it seems promising, currently not restricted. I tried to buy a small amount to check it out but American postage rates are outrageous. It was going to cost $150 to post $50 worth of wood! I'm inclined to use some of the wide range of hard fine grained Australian woods. There are desert acacias eg mulga, myall, gidgee, and the casuarinas such as she-oak and buloke. Buloke is simply amazing stuff but it has a strong figure which some might not appreciate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted September 8 Report Share Posted September 8 1 hour ago, fiddlecollector said: For those who like black ,it doesnt look very black to me , The small sample I brought home from a VSA Convention is quite black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBK Posted September 8 Report Share Posted September 8 I can forsee an up-tick in the use of planetary gear pegs made of composite materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Posted September 8 Author Report Share Posted September 8 1 hour ago, IBK said: I can forsee an up-tick in the use of planetary gear pegs made of composite materials. Synthetics are viable alternative for tailpieces and pegs, so why not fingerboards? I can see bonding to the neck of the violin being a bit of a hurdle for synthetics, but workable. 5 hours ago, David Burgess said: The Sonowood compressed beechwood fitting are gaining some traction among makers and repair people, partly because they will supposedly hold well using conventional hot hide glue, since they are not made of plastic resin, nor are they resin infused (like the ThermalWood Obsidian Ebony and some other ebony substitute products). https://www.thestrad.com/accessories/products-november-2021-swiss-wood-solutions-sonowood-black/13770.article They're pretty pricey though compared to some other ebony substitutes. The US distributor: https://www.vermontviolins.com/sonowood/sonowood-fingerboard-nut-amp-saddle-spruce-amp-maple-violin-44-k4xw5 I'm also wondering about the compatibility of hot hide glue with Obsidian Ebony, so I contacted ThermalWood and am awaiting a response. I would think one could bond a dark piece of wood to the bottom of the fingerboard that could be compatible with hide glue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonGeo Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 On 9/8/2024 at 10:37 AM, Woodland said: I'm also wondering about the compatibility of hot hide glue with Obsidian Ebony, so I contacted ThermalWood and am awaiting a response. I would think one could bond a dark piece of wood to the bottom of the fingerboard that could be compatible with hide glue. I’d love to know what they say.. can you keep us posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 1 hour ago, JonGeo said: I’d love to know what they say.. can you keep us posted? I heard back from them, and the term they used regarding hide glue compatibility was "inconclusive" They said some luthiers had good results with hide glue while others did not. If I move forward with a purchase I would laminate a piece of veneer (or perhaps something a tad thicker) under the fingerboard with epoxy, shape the board then attach with hide glue. They claimed epoxy is compatible with the material, but obviously that is out of the question for gluing to a violin neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCF Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 Is this material impregnated with an acrylic resin like the popular 'cactus juice'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 26 minutes ago, LCF said: Is this material impregnated with an acrylic resin like the popular 'cactus juice'? https://thermalwoodcanada.com/products-november-2023-thermalwood-canada-obsidian-ebony/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonGeo Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 @Woodland good to know… I like the idea of this stuff.. I’ll give it a try when I come to this part of my build.. hopefully there’s a way to epoxy the veneer with out it looking obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted skreko Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 Ebonprex is gaining my attention these days. I made a cello fingerboard from it and am pretty impressed. Conventional hot hide glue worked great and was recommended. It’s not as wear resistant as Corene, but it seems to have more life in it and is better than most ebony fingerboard cello blanks available today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCF Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 10 hours ago, Woodland said: https://thermalwoodcanada.com/products-november-2023-thermalwood-canada-obsidian-ebony/ Some sort of resin ('resins, hardeners'), which explains the shiny appearance in an otherwise dull timber like maple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleMkr Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 I would think that American beech would be the hardness you would want, but it is whiter than even maple. After all wooden plane bodies are made from beech (the best ones are). There are suppliers of beech wooden plane stock now. (Relatively new. Plane making is catching on as a hobby.) so you have a source of wood, and it’s quarter sawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Mark Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 evidently Ebonprex is red beech: "Ebonprex is made with Red Beech Laminated densified Wood, with raw material 100% of European origin, easily available and environmental friendly being PEFC certificated." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoGo Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 I looked up red beech and see only references to NZ/AU and south africa species of trees. :-) If you color/densify/laminate thin layers of wood the result is just as much impregnated by glue as the resin impregnated type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCF Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 28 minutes ago, HoGo said: I looked up red beech and see only references to NZ/AU and south africa species of trees. :-) If you color/densify/laminate thin layers of wood the result is just as much impregnated by glue as the resin impregnated type. Antarctic beech, Nothofagus. Nice pinkish reddish timber. Doesn't have the intense ray structures of true beech. If you laminate suitable strips of hardwood with hide glue it will be perfectly compatible. With hide glue. PS European beech, Fagus Sylvatica, is also known as copper beech. Perhaps some call that red. From the autumn foliage I guess. I'm sounding like a beechnut now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoGo Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 4 minutes ago, LCF said: If you laminate suitable strips of hardwood with hide glue it will be perfectly compatible. With hide glue. I don't think any producer of laminated woods uses hide glue. I wonder what thickness are the laminates in the Ebonprex? Is it layered like a plywood (but in one direction) or thicker pieces glued together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew tkinson Posted September 14 Report Share Posted September 14 On 9/12/2024 at 1:04 PM, LCF said: Antarctic beech, Nothofagus. Nice pinkish reddish timber. Doesn't have the intense ray structures of true beech. If you laminate suitable strips of hardwood with hide glue it will be perfectly compatible. With hide glue. PS European beech, Fagus Sylvatica, is also known as copper beech. Perhaps some call that red. From the autumn foliage I guess. I'm sounding like a beechnut now. Hello, I am no expert on plant classification but I believe Copper Beech is the "purpura" variety of Fagus Sylvatica. It is popular as a decorative tree or hedging plant in Britain, (and perhaps in many other countries?), because it has red/purple leaves instead of the usual green. Here is a screenshot of what looks like to be some nice, freshly opened, copper beech leaves. A couple of old copper beeches were cut down a few years ago near where I live. Whenever I hear a chainsaw noise I feel an irresistable urge to go and "rescue" some wood to further clog up my garage. I got a couple of chunks of the wood and sawed it up and it seems to be very much like usual European beech. I have to admit I haven't used any of my copper beech wood to make anything yet so can't comment on its working qualities but I can say it does an admirable job of clogging up a garage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoGo Posted September 14 Report Share Posted September 14 I guess they call common EU beech (fagus sylvatica) "red" becaise it's heartwood is reddish/pinkish.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.