Is a hard varnish really bad for the sound?

[LCF]

I don't think it is possible to make a violin sound so hard and bright that it will be louder than the castanets in the percussion section so the question to ask is what sort of finishes are castanet makers using?

[David Beard]

I think it's an interesting question, unlikely to find a clear answer.

My opinion is just personal bias and superstition. I have no good basis for this opinion.

1) I associate very stiff and heavy varnishes with junky instruments.  Is the hard thick varnish the reason these instruments are bad?  It's surely not the only reason.  If it's truly part of the problem or not I don't really know.

2) I favor a varnish that is a bit pliable.  I tell myself that a hint of this in a varnish is good.  Why???  Is it true???  I tell myself this might help dampen bad noise elements??

3) I favor grounds to some extent in a layer between the wood and the outer surface of varnish.  I fancy this promotes a clean clarity and fidelity in higher frequencies.  True??? 

Finish continues as a subject with many mysteries to me.

[Andreas Preuss]

19 hours ago, David Beard said:

I think it's an interesting question, unlikely to find a clear answer.

My opinion is just personal bias and superstition. I have no good basis for this opinion.

1) I associate very stiff and heavy varnishes with junky instruments.  Is the hard thick varnish the reason these instruments are bad?  It's surely not the only reason.  If it's truly part of the problem or not I don't really know.

2) I favor a varnish that is a bit pliable.  I tell myself that a hint of this in a varnish is good.  Why???  Is it true???  I tell myself this might help dampen bad noise elements??

3) I favor grounds to some extent in a layer between the wood and the outer surface of varnish.  I fancy this promotes a clean clarity and fidelity in higher frequencies.  True??? 

Finish continues as a subject with many mysteries to me.

I believe that many ‘mysteries’ come from unproven prejudices. 
 

1. You may ask yourself what has a bigger influence on the entire mechanics of a violin. I dare to say it’s the chunky built. In the end instruments by Hannibal Fagnola got a pretty good reputation and most of them have a quite thick varnish (though no one would describe them with the negative words ‘stiff and heavy’ for obvious reasons)

2. Because you have done pretty deep research into the historic practices I would ask you as follows: ‘Have you ever read one word in a scripture that would mention any aspect of sound in connection to varnish?’ I don’t think there is and likewise the old makers (most likely) didn’t think too much about it. 
 

Sidenote: it would be a sort of sensation if someone would find somewhere in an archive positive evidence that violin makers gave their instruments to a professional painter for varnishing. Or was this indeed the reason why in many cities violin makers belonged to the guild of painters? 

 

3. I am pretty sure that the ground on the top does something to the sound while on the back it does almost nothing. Instruments whose top has been soaked in rubbery substances like propolis, linseed oil and other weird liquids) have all lost their sound. 
 

We are maybe still under the shadow of the old idea that the right varnish can bring the miraculous sound. This means that varnish can improve something and is meant to improve something. I personally prefer to think the other way around: varnish has a rather negative effect. So what do we need to do to limit the negative effect?

[Claudio Rampini]

4 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

We are maybe still under the shadow of the old idea that the right varnish can bring the miraculous sound. This means that varnish can improve something and is meant to improve something. I personally prefer to think the other way around: varnish has a rather negative effect. So what do we need to do to limit the negative effect?

The miracle is mainly on how we make a violin, the varnish is the last stage where you can see our work exalted or ruined, it's depending by the varnish, of course. The first time I used an oil varnish was when trying the Padding's varnish (oil/sandarac), although it was hard to dry properly (too thermoplastic), it gave me a sort of a power bost on my instruments. But that wasn't a miracle, it was just like a "do not disturb" matter applied on the violin.

Then I used my own oil varnishes based on modified colophony/oil and I got the same good results. At last when I passed through my sandarac/oil (but easier to apply and to dry than the Padding's varnish), I got the same good results. So, if you want to limit the negative effect of a varnish, assuming that your violin is well made, responsive and with an extraordinary overtones richness, is to not disturb it with thick, rigid, not thermoplastic, hard or rubbery varnishes. This target can be reached just with a good and well made and well applied oil varnish.

[David Beard]

18 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

I believe that many ‘mysteries’ come from unproven prejudices. 
 

1. You may ask yourself what has a bigger influence on the entire mechanics of a violin. I dare to say it’s the chunky built. In the end instruments by Hannibal Fagnola got a pretty good reputation and most of them have a quite thick varnish (though no one would describe them with the negative words ‘stiff and heavy’ for obvious reasons)

2. Because you have done pretty deep research into the historic practices I would ask you as follows: ‘Have you ever read one word in a scripture that would mention any aspect of sound in connection to varnish?’ I don’t think there is and likewise the old makers (most likely) didn’t think too much about it. 
 

Sidenote: it would be a sort of sensation if someone would find somewhere in an archive positive evidence that violin makers gave their instruments to a professional painter for varnishing. Or was this indeed the reason why in many cities violin makers belonged to the guild of painters? 

 

3. I am pretty sure that the ground on the top does something to the sound while on the back it does almost nothing. Instruments whose top has been soaked in rubbery substances like propolis, linseed oil and other weird liquids) have all lost their sound. 
 

We are maybe still under the shadow of the old idea that the right varnish can bring the miraculous sound. This means that varnish can improve something and is meant to improve something. I personally prefer to think the other way around: varnish has a rather negative effect. So what do we need to do to limit the negative effect?

I have no real argument with what you're saying.  And no, my research hasn't turned up any such historical comments.  (Though, I sort of remember some of varnish recipe lists putting 'flexible varnish' and 'instrument varnish' together.)

The idea I offered are very much just personal notions/prejudices.

In truth, I think varnish is very much about physical beauty.  Also, I think the difference between sound with a not fully cured varnish and a well dried varnish suggests that a too plastic and too dampening a varnish is not good.  And, while I tend to think a very wide range of varnishes can be acceptable, I'm still not comfortable suggesting the varnish is or isn't significant to sound, for good or ill.

As said before, it remains fairly mysterious to me.

 

[Don Noon]

17 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

We are maybe still under the shadow of the old idea that the right varnish can bring the miraculous sound. 

Fog.

I'm not a big believer in miracles, though.  More like diligent work, paying attention, and perhaps a bit of luck.

[Christian Pedersen]

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[LCF]

On 8/27/2024 at 5:00 AM, Chris Anderson, PhD said:

If you want a very long answer... Ms. Lammlien recent received her PhD doing a review of this very topic - providing a very good bibliography.  This is pretty 'material science' engineering-heavy for a read.  

https://www.dora.lib4ri.ch/empa/islandora/object/empa%3A18766

The answer is 'it depends'.  Engineering, as my advisor said is "the judicious manipulation of mid-range values".  

In short - grounds increase rigidity and volume, varnishes provide 'damping'.  The balance between the two, materials and thicknesses result in the overall tone and timbre of the instrument.  Not sure if you meant 'Varnish' or 'Finishing system' - sometimes the term 'varnish' is utilized as referring to the 'whole system'.  

thanks, 

Chris Anderson

That is a very good review and summary of a huge collection of research projects about varnish, 92 references to follow up and worth downloading just for figure 2(e)

It is amazing that it's a free download. Thanks for the link.