Identify this Hill bow?

[phillip77]

Authenticity, value? (if that's allowed on here, ignore if not), anything interesting, any other comments?

All opinions much appreciated, thanks. 

[Dwight Brown]

https://www.thehillbow.com/wehill-bowmakers/ 

The ranking goes (1) W.E. Hill and Sons (2) W.E.H & S (3) H & S and (4) Hill.

As this is a half mounted bow this makes sense.  The W is a stamp or batch mark to mate up frogs and sticks when working on a number of bows at a time.

I have no idea if this bow is authentic or not.  I am not qualified in any way to make such a judgment.

The single tick mark in the lower part of the mortice is the mark of Sydney Yeoman

 

Sydney Yeoman (b 1876-d 1948)

Started work in the case department in 1885, then moved on to bows and was apprenticed to William Napier.

Volunteered for the army in 1914, and returned a different man, shell shocked and broken.

He became diabetic and lost an eye, eventually in 1930 took charge of the less experienced bow makers.

His bows for Hill have a single nick in the lower mortise.

Hope this helps.

DLB

( Dinner, Lunch , and Breakfast)

[phillip77]

20 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said:

The single tick mark in the lower part of the mortice is the mark of Sydney Yeoman

Where is the tick mark exactly? I can't see anything, am I being daft?

[Zeissica]

3 hours ago, phillip77 said:

Where is the tick mark exactly? I can't see anything, am I being daft?

I don't see the tick on this headplate either & I've got two Yeoman bows in my possession. 

[Dwight Brown]

If you look at the lower left corner of the head mortice there is a small file cut.  Again I am not a learned expert but this is where I would expect to find it.

DLB

[Dwight Brown]

See Below

DLB

[Dwight Brown]

[Dwight Brown]

I have seen pictures where the nick is much more pronounced and more centered.  

There should be a bow guru by before long to give us wisdom from the mountaintop.  I am but a pitiful slime mold.

DLB

[phillip77]

22 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said:

I wonder why they made it so cryptic, just out of interest? 

Could it be that the makers marks were only ever intended for internal use within the workshop and they didn't realise they would one day become "hallmarks"?

[Zeissica]

On my bows, the mark is centered and more pronounced than what is evident in the last photo above. 

I was hoping I had photos of both of mine, but I could only find the one of them. 

[Dwight Brown]

Is it another pin or a more on the bottom center of the mortise? If it’s a circle it could be Scarbrow maybe?

DLB

[LCF]

1 hour ago, Dwight Brown said:

Is it another pin or a more on the bottom center of the mortise? If it’s a circle it could be Scarbrow maybe?

DLB

If any of those marks aren't random it looks more to me like the two nicks associated with W G Johnston in your diagram but they're a  bit nebulous. 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

22 hours ago, Dwight Brown said:

I have seen pictures where the nick is much more pronounced and more centered.  

There should be a bow guru by before long to give us wisdom from the mountaintop.  I am but a pitiful slime mold.

DLB

Not every Hill maker used a tip mark.

For what it's worth, I honestly don't see what I would consider a Yeoman nick in the photo... 

The button looks a little odd to me.

[Johnny Sun]

On 8/21/2024 at 8:59 PM, phillip77 said:

I wonder why they made it so cryptic, just out of interest? 

Could it be that the makers marks were only ever intended for internal use within the workshop and they didn't realise they would one day become "hallmarks"

here you go.

https://chatgpt.com/c/55d569e7-0a25-4f67-a87b-1a9d9c181782

[martin swan]

6 hours ago, Johnny Sun said:

here you go.

https://chatgpt.com/c/55d569e7-0a25-4f67-a87b-1a9d9c181782

This information is well known and I’m not going to sign into ChatGPT to have it regurgitated with all the bits in the wrong order.

[martin swan]

On 8/22/2024 at 7:30 PM, Jeffrey Holmes said:

 

For what it's worth, I honestly don't see what I would consider a Yeoman nick in the photo... 

The button looks a little odd to me.

Agreed, no maker’s mark visible, but the faceplate is pretty funky.

Also agree re the button which should be plain not 3 piece.

[Anna Ashmole]

10 hours ago, Johnny Sun said:

here you go.

https://chatgpt.com/c/55d569e7-0a25-4f67-a87b-1a9d9c181782

Maestronet is an extraordinary community of real, human experts. Why are you suggesting that people consult an AI which will simply compose a mess of pseudo-information derived from the online data it is trained on, without using any human expertise as to the quality of that data, and without direct access to the judgement of the expert humans on Maestronet or the un-digitised books they can consult?

One of the oldest adages of computing is the gigo principle: 'garbage in, garbage out'. I assume that you are aware that not everything on the internet is true? Chat GPT is largely trained on internet data - it's a different way of presenting that data, which can read convincingly but isn't necessarily correct.

A couple of technical points - your query to ChatGPT produces a one-off answer, which is not visible to others even if they are logged in (so your link is pointless). Also, if someone else queries ChatGPT with exactly the same words the answer will be re-generated and it will be worded differently.

With ChatGPT and other AI systems, as with Wikipedia, we all need to learn the limitations of it the 'information' it presents to us and how to best make use of it. For me, one of the biggest limitations of AI-generated text is that there are no references for the data sources - it produces 'take it or leave it' statements which you can't check against the sources.  People who are not violin or bow experts may feel that they can learn something from AI generated answers but I suggest that it has no place on Maestronet.

As an aside, when I asked Chat GPT about the history of my family home, Kidston Mill, it told me that it was open to the public and had a coffee shop - which came as a big surprise to my 90-year old parents who live there in contemplative seclusion.

[Gtone]

Couldn't agree more Anna

Johnny sun no AI....please.

[phillip77]

53 minutes ago, Gtone said:

Couldn't agree more Anna

 

[Johnny Sun]

2 hours ago, Anna Ashmole said:

Maestronet is an extraordinary community of real, human experts. Why are you suggesting that people consult an AI which will simply compose a mess of pseudo-information derived from the online data it is trained on, without using any human expertise as to the quality of that data, and without direct access to the judgement of the expert humans on Maestronet or the un-digitised books they can consult?

One of the oldest agages of computing is the gigo principle: 'garbage in, garbage out'. I assume that you are aware that not everything on the internet is true? Chat GPT is largely trained on internet data - it's a different way of presenting that data, which can read convincingly but isn't necessarily correct.

A couple of technical points - your query to ChatGPT produces a one-off answer, which is not visible to others even if they are logged in (so your link is pointless). Also, if someone else queries ChatGPT with exactly the same words the answer will be re-generated and it will be worded differently.

With ChatGPT and other AI systems, as with Wikipedia, we all need to learn the limitations of it the 'information' it presents to us and how to best make use of it. For me, one of the biggest limitations of AI-generated text is that there are no references for the data sources - it produces 'take it or leave it' statements which you can't check against the sources.  People who are not violin or bow experts may feel that they can learn something from AI generated answers but I suggest that it has no place on Maestronet.

As an aside, when I asked Chat GPT about the history of my family home, Kidston Mill, it told me that it was open to the public and had a coffee shop - which came as a big surprise to my 90-year old parents who live there in contemplative seclusion.

Dear Anna, thank you for your opinions about AI. I will paste the answer from GPT to the particular question "why bow makers of w e hill workshop have different hallmarks on the tip plate", please take 1 min to read it. 

From GPT: "The different hallmarks on the tip plates of bows made at the W.E. Hill & Sons workshop serve as identifying marks that indicate which specific bow maker was responsible for crafting that particular bow.

 

W.E. Hill & Sons was one of the most prestigious British workshops, and they employed many highly skilled bow makers over the years. Each of these craftsmen had a unique hallmark or stamp that they applied to the bows they made. These hallmarks usually appear on the tip plate (or other parts of the bow), making it possible to trace the bow's origins back to the individual maker.

 

This system allowed the workshop to maintain high quality and accountability, as each bow could be linked to its creator, ensuring that the craftsmanship met the workshop's exacting standards. Collectors, musicians, and historians value these hallmarks as they not only authenticate the bow's origin but also add to its historical and monetary value."

Would you tell me if this answer is good, ok, or completely bullshit?

I am not going to argue with you about AI, we have different opinions, and it is ok. I won't post anything again from AI in this forum, thank you for reminding me Anna. Also thanks to Martin and Gtone. 

 

[phillip77]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sun said:

Would you tell me if this answer is good, ok, or completely bullshit?

I think Anna's point was that this is nothing I couldn't find out myself by googling it. You might be perfectly correct if your argument is "well why didn't you google it yourself then?" - maybe I'd be better off just doing that next time...

However, if everybody does that then forums like this are redundant. People come here for expert opinion, information not already in the public domain. Or as in this case, I'm looking for second opinions. I want as much information about this bow as possible rather than trusting what the dealer is telling me. 

And then I can make a more informed decision about whether I want to pay his asking price or not. 

So £4000 for this bow. Yes or no?

[martin swan]

38 minutes ago, phillip77 said:

So £4000 for this bow. Yes or no?

I don’t like to comment on other dealers’ prices given the obvious conflict of interest.

But I’m happy to state than in my opinion the button doesn’t belong. Also the “Hill” brand isn’t the highest level of bow and wouldn’t command the same price as a WE Hill & Son branded example.

so I would compare the price against the price of other “Hill”bows that are all original. 

 

[Brad Dorsey]

2 hours ago, Johnny Sun said:

...Would you tell me if this answer is good, ok, or completely bullshit?...

Not complete bullshit.  Going by my knowledge of Hill bows, I think it's pretty good for a general readership, but it is not up to Pegbox standards.

The one problem that I see is that the statement "These hallmarks usually appear on the tip plate (or other parts of the bow)" implies that the makers of the buttons and the frogs can also be identified.  I have never heard of this before.  The makers' marks only identify the makers of the sticks.  The answer also implies that each Hill bow was entirely made by one maker, but the truth is that Hill bow making was a (high quality) assembly-line system with different parts being made by different people.

And, now that I have clarified these things, perhaps the answer to the next AI Hill bow search will be more accurate.

[Dwight Brown]

I know from a book buy one of the last of the Hill bow makers that they stopped allowing them to mark their bows at some point. He felt that they were not treated with much respect toward the end. $4,000 is probably about what I would expect in a shop if it is in very good shape and plays well. Given that it has a replaced adjuster that seems high but I don’t know the market really.

DLB

[Johnny Sun]

2 hours ago, phillip77 said:

I think Anna's point was that this is nothing I couldn't find out myself by googling it.

Did you find any articles explaining to you why 

 

20 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Not complete bullshit.  Going by my knowledge of Hill bows, I think it's pretty good for a general readership, but it is not up to Pegbox standards.

The one problem that I see is that the statement "These hallmarks usually appear on the tip plate (or other parts of the bow)" implies that the makers of the buttons and the frogs can also be identified.  I have never heard of this before.  The makers' marks only identify the makers of the sticks.  The answer also implies that each Hill bow was entirely made by one maker, but the truth is that the different parts were made by different people.

And, now that I have clarified these things, perhaps the answer to the next AI Hill bow search will be more accurate.

I appreciate your reply.

If someone so knowledgeable like you would spend 5 mins answering the original poster's questions instead of debating about AI, we amateur will never need the answer from GPT which is not up to Pegbox standard.