Violin ID in Scotland

[Blank face]

11 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

Thanks Moray, whilst blank face doesn't see Mittenwald in the linings/blocks, I again see absolutely no reasons why they couldn't be.  Neither of us have the benefit of X-ray eyes, so the way lings end in the block is still speculative.  The rib miters, although slightly rounded in parts, seem to fit the Mittenwald construction. and now you've posted the lower rib picture...  You even have the "Mittenwald notch", and the original flat (typical) 19th century dropped down saddle. 

I really do think it is a Mittenwald fiddle.

I should better have written „not like the usual Mittenwald blocks“, which don’t disappear immediately beneath the block but just after ca one millimeter or so, just as I pictured above.

The very flat saddle and the notch (which isn’t exclusive to Mittenwald at all, but can be found f.e. at English instruments, too, though the latter are constructed differently) would point towards something probably not later than the mid of the 19th century from the South German or Austrian region , with an internal structure similar to the Schweitzer, which Jacob pictured in the linked thread, maybe Mittenwald or from elsewhere. I still think that the varnish is altered, possibly at the same time when the brand was applied, what makes things not easier.

[Moray]

Thanks everyone for the comments and discussion. This has been a fascinating insight and I don’t think I’ll ever not pay close attention to the details of a violin again! I’m going to take it to get valued in the near future and if they unearth any other details/info I’ll post on here.

Moray

[Moray]

Quick update on this. Visited the violin shop in Glasgow today and they reckon it’s a French “trade” violin circa late 1800s. They see similar passing through fairly regularly apparently. 

[Blank face]

11 hours ago, Moray said:

Quick update on this. Visited the violin shop in Glasgow today and they reckon it’s a French “trade” violin circa late 1800s. They see similar passing through fairly regularly apparently. 

I believe that they are seeing a lot of French late 19th French trade, but I've never seen a flat inserted saddle, a notch under the endpin or an inside work like that at one of these.

[Moray]

4 hours ago, Blank face said:

I believe that they are seeing a lot of French late 19th French trade, but I've never seen a flat inserted saddle, a notch under the endpin or an inside work like that at one of these.

I almost mentioned these given the discussions above but someone with a cello appeared and that was that! Anyway, I’ll get someone else to have a look in Edinburgh and see what they come up with. It’s interesting nonetheless.

[Blank face]

What means “a cello like that”?

[martin swan]

18 hours ago, Moray said:

Quick update on this. Visited the violin shop in Glasgow today and they reckon it’s a French “trade” violin circa late 1800s. They see similar passing through fairly regularly apparently. 

Definitely not.

There is a huge level of knowledge here on Maestronet and to be frank a lot of shops aren't particularly versed in identification. If you prefer to have an opinion from someone you can stand in a room with, I would go to Tim Wright or Gordon Stevenson (if he hasn't retired).

[LCF]

13 hours ago, Blank face said:

What means “a cello like that”?

'and that was that' means when the next customer with the cello showed up, that was the end of the discussion about the violin. 

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, LCF said:

'and that was that' means when the next customer with the cello showed up, that was the end of the discussion about the violin. 

Thanks!

[Moray]

16 hours ago, martin swan said:

Definitely not.

There is a huge level of knowledge here on Maestronet and to be frank a lot of shops aren't particularly versed in identification. If you prefer to have an opinion from someone you can stand in a room with, I would go to Tim Wright or Gordon Stevenson (if he hasn't retired).

Thanks Martin.  Yes I will definitely get in touch with Tim Wright and check if Gordon Stevenson is still active in Edinburgh.  The knowledge breadth on the forum is quite staggering! I suppose many have worked with and seen a lot of violins over the years.

4 hours ago, LCF said:

'and that was that' means when the next customer with the cello showed up, that was the end of the discussion about the violin. 

Indeed.

Sorry for the delay in getting @Blank face. Im still regulated by the Mods and limited to 2 posts a day on here. Hopefully im out of jail shortly though. 

[Moray]

Good evening everyone. A quick update from me. I went to see Tim and Helen Wright in Edinburgh today and they both spent time investigating the violin (and a lot of time explaining what they were doing and also the history of Mittenwald workshops etc, really fascinating).  They ended up at the same conclusion that it appears to be a Mittenwald (of decent quality) possibly from around 1880-1890s. They endoscoped inside for a look as well (highlighted another crack!) but said the quality of the build, single piece back, joints/lining and of course the notch and saddle pointed heavily to Mittenwald. Given all the great knowledge coming through on here also, I’m fairly confident that’s the conclusion. 

My next quest is to find a Sotheby’s catalogue from November 1985 as the violin was, I think bought there during that time. Unfortunately Helen and Tim’s catalogues started in 1986. 

[Moray]

On 9/15/2024 at 4:08 PM, martin swan said:

Definitely not.

There is a huge level of knowledge here on Maestronet and to be frank a lot of shops aren't particularly versed in identification. If you prefer to have an opinion from someone you can stand in a room with, I would go to Tim Wright or Gordon Stevenson (if he hasn't retired).

Martin, thanks for the steer of going to Tim Wright. 

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Moray said:

Martin, thanks for the steer of going to Tim Wright. 

Glad they could help ...

[Moray]

So the violin did appear in the Sothebys catalogue below (14 November 1985). However they were selling it as English Duke)! Based on discussions on here and the visit to Tim and Helen I’m inclined to stick to the Mittenwald theory though. Still, interesting to see it in a book before it came into the family.

 

[martin swan]

Interesting - I recently had a conundrum involving a Thompson branded violin from the late 18th century that seemed to have started its life in Mittenwald.

We know this practice was quite widespread in the early 19th century English trade, but perhaps it started earlier than that.

[Shelbow]

2 hours ago, Moray said:

So the violin did appear in the Sothebys catalogue below (14 November 1985). However they were selling it as English Duke)! Based on discussions on here and the visit to Tim and Helen I’m inclined to stick to the Mittenwald theory though. Still, interesting to see it in a book before it came into the family.

 

Great job at digging that out, very interesting indeed.

[Sammyo]

Ah, you found the catalogue. I was just about to say that it seems you could buy a copy here: https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/more-furniture-collectibles/collectibles-curiosities/books/two-sothebys-london-auction-catalogues-on-musical-instruments/id-f_10620891/ (at quite a high price though).  I'll post this anyway just in case it would be useful to you to have a copy.

[Moray]

5 hours ago, martin swan said:

Interesting - I recently had a conundrum involving a Thompson branded violin from the late 18th century that seemed to have started its life in Mittenwald.

We know this practice was quite widespread in the early 19th century English trade, but perhaps it started earlier than that.

Yes Martin, I was a bit surprised when I saw it. The date was a bit early for my liking(!) compared to what's been discussed and what Helen and Tim had suggested.  I've emailed a few people at Sothebys to see if they can shed any light but don't expect anything. I'm sure they have records of the sale but would be interested to see if they have any record of how they attributed that description.

4 hours ago, Shelbow said:

Great job at digging that out, very interesting indeed.

The whole catalogue is great! Im glad I found it. I did get the afternoon catalogue as well but its just just text descriptions of the instrument (i'm enjoying the colour photos for the morning auction catalogue!).

4 hours ago, Sammyo said:

Ah, you found the catalogue. I was just about to say that it seems you could buy a copy here: https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/more-furniture-collectibles/collectibles-curiosities/books/two-sothebys-london-auction-catalogues-on-musical-instruments/id-f_10620891/ (at quite a high price though).  I'll post this anyway just in case it would be useful to you to have a copy.

That's the very catalogue I got but the shipping was a lot less thankfully. It came from Amatoria Fine Art books in Sacramento. Great service from them by the way.

[Moray]

Well Sothebys came back within 2 hours! As they don’t have a music dept anymore they had limited knowledge and no record of how it arrived at the company (although that may exist somewhere else). They did have a record of the seller (someone who was in the armed forces apparently) and the fact it did not sell initially (reserve not met) but was bought in by Sothebys. So I’m none the wiser. They did send the image below though.

Anyway, Amati are visiting St Andrews in a couple of weeks to do some appraisals/valuations. I may pop across and see what they say.