Violin ID in Scotland

[Moray]

 

Hello, newby here so be gentle please . I was given the violin below by my sister who was given it many years ago by her (and mine as a toddler!) old violin teacher in Scotland. It has had some work done recently by a luthier in Dundee (rebushed, new pegs, couple of small cracks repaired) and is back in playing business. It came with an old wooden case (WE Hill and Son) and some labels from Sothebys (in the recess of my mind it was either bought there or valued there in 1985, but I don’t have any evidence of that). It has what I think, is a rather fetching tailpiece with abalone inlay. There was also a snake wood (maybe) bow which I’ve had rehaired as it was practically bare. Other than that, there is a Duke stamp on the back and a small stamp on the finger board (B Y ?). There is no label inside.

If anyone has any information they could impart, that would be fantastic. It is a full size 4/4.

Many thanks,

Moray in Dundee, Scotland.

 

[Moray]

Here is the bow.

Thanks, Moray

[Riccardo964]

It looks different from what R. Duke used to do on violins: https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/browse-the-archive/makers/maker/?Maker_ID=166

And there was this copy: https://www.nickcooperviolins.co.uk/product-page/duke-copy-violin-france-c1880

This is yours:

Person got the E wrong! It reads DUKƎ - Pro Tip: test on a piece of wood before putting it in the violin.

I guess you have a (poorly built) fake on your hands.

Best wishes,

[Riccardo964]

15 hours ago, Moray said:

newby here so be gentle please

be prepared for constant abuse and high toxicity levels throughout

(sorry if I was in last message - it was not my intention)

[Ratcliffiddles]

The violin looks like a decent Mittenwald instrument from the later part of the 19th century. 

And by the way, Riccardo, the first of the 2 stamps above is not that of Duke, but common on cheap Mirecourt, often unpurfled ( as is that one) violins. The "wax" seal not uncommon either on those.

[Blank face]

To tell more in particular we need to know about the internal structure, if the linings are mortised into assymetrical corner blocks and if the scroll is fully undercut. If Mittenwald, then the varnish is altered IMO. Could be also a good Saxony, I don’t know enough about Duke to tell if it’s a real thing.

[Dr. Mark]

I note that on the Ingles and Haliday 1770, 1779, and 1780 Richard Dukes the London stamp is italic, while Duke is not.  A similar stamp is used on their Duke, jr. of 1779.  Similar stamps are on the following Sr. or unspecified examples (not vetted for overlap): T. A. Craig, Turner's 1760, the David Kerr ca. 1770 violin(who notes that more faithful copies of Strad and Amati were unbranded), the Sidney String Center's, Brompton's ca 1770.  A ca. 1765 violin put up by The Violin Connection of Southern Africa has a different stamp - Duke only on an arc, Nick Cooper shows DUKE only, the 1763 Bridgeword and Neitzert example does not show the back, no back brand on Perrin's, a Simmers violin with no back brand but an arc Duke under the button...

Nothing like any of the photos above.  How many of these brands are legit?

[Blank face]

On a closer look, the belly appears to be one piece, what makes Saxony rather improbable, and under the fingerboard is a different, more reddish varnish visible. So we need to know about the linings/blocks to tell if it’s a stripped Mittenwald.  

[Moray]

8 hours ago, Riccardo964 said:

be prepared for constant abuse and high toxicity levels throughout

(sorry if I was in last message - it was not my intention)

All good Riccardo, my friend. By the way the E is the right way round! I went back and checked, I think it was the lighting in the original photo. Not that I expect it to be a Duke, as Dr Mark mentioned above there seems to be so many different stamps around.

 

5 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

The violin looks like a decent Mittenwald instrument from the later part of the 19th century. 

Interesting Ratcliffiddles, many thanks. Will bear that in mind as a possibility.

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

On a closer look, the belly appears to be one piece, what makes Saxony rather improbable, and under the fingerboard is a different, more reddish varnish visible. So we need to know about the linings/blocks to tell if it’s a stripped Mittenwald.  

Thanks Blank face. I had a quick look in with a torch. Not entirely sure what I’m looking to see regarding the linings and corner blocks however so any guidance would be appreciated and I’ll see if I can get a peek/photo.

if nothing else, I’m learning a great deal more about violin construction (having played them for the best part of 50 years and never really paid attention!)

[Andreas Preuss]

14 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

The violin looks like a decent Mittenwald instrument from the later part of the 19th century. 

And by the way, Riccardo, the first of the 2 stamps above is not that of Duke, but common on cheap Mirecourt, often unpurfled ( as is that one) violins. The "wax" seal not uncommon either on those.

Question here:

Didn’t  have London dealers business connections to Mittenwald for cheaper instruments? And better connections to Mittenwald than Markneukirchen? 
 

Therefore one might also muse if those Mirecourt instruments with a Duke brandstamp weren’t made on the demand from Britain. (stamped directly in the factory for that purpose?)

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Was the luthier in Dundee Graham Welsh?? Good friend of mine.

[jacobsaunders]

5 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Question here:

Didn’t  have London dealers business connections to Mittenwald for cheaper instruments? And better connections to Mittenwald than Markneukirchen? 
 

Therefore one might also muse if those Mirecourt instruments with a Duke brandstamp weren’t made on the demand from Britain. (stamped directly in the factory for that purpose?)

For quite a long period there weren’t “connections” due to the continental blockade. Up to perhaps the 1820’s the English made their cheap violins themselves. Mittenwald didn’t really have violin “Factories” but the Verleger system. I personally don’t see the OP violin as anything to do with Mittenwald

[Ratcliffiddles]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

 I personally don’t see the OP violin as anything to do with Mittenwald

I personally totally do, and it is very similar to several I have seen. One piece front, one-piece back, corner-work and scroll, all quite typical to me. I look forward to see the linings/ corner blocks.

[jacobsaunders]

35 minutes ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

 

I look forward to see the linings/ corner blocks.

me too

[Richf]

FWIW some "Duke London" violins discussed here in years past were attributed to the Caussin shop.  

 

[jacobsaunders]

25 minutes ago, Richf said:

FWIW some "Duke London" violins discussed here in years past were attributed to the Caussin shop.  

 

The OP one isn’t. Riccardo964’s stamp (above) probably is though

[Blank face]

20 hours ago, Moray said:

Thanks Blank face. I had a quick look in with a torch. Not entirely sure what I’m looking to see regarding the linings and corner blocks however so any guidance would be appreciated and I’ll see if I can get a peek/photo.

Mittenwald blocks should look like that, that upper and lower ribs overlap the C ribs at the joints as a mitre.

Actually I couldn’t see such rib mitred at the photos.

 

 

[Andreas Preuss]

6 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

For quite a long period there weren’t “connections” due to the continental blockade. Up to perhaps the 1820’s the English made their cheap violins themselves. Mittenwald didn’t really have violin “Factories” but the Verleger system. I personally don’t see the OP violin as anything to do with Mittenwald

The continental blockade was only 8 years from 1806 to 1814. Sanctions from the French side against Britain before (from 1786) probably didn’t affect the trade with Bavaria. 
 

But regardless, what do we know about trade connections between London dealers and Mittenwald Verlegers? I remember having seen an 18th century violin which was attributed to one of the big London workshops but was in the end the product of an unknown Mittenwald maker.

[Moray]

2 hours ago, Blank face said:

Mittenwald blocks should look like that, that upper and lower ribs overlap the C ribs at the joints as a mitre.

Actually I couldn’t see such rib mitred at the photos.

 

 

Hello Blank Face, so my best efforts with an iPhone and a torch (and my daughter as a helper) this is the best I can get. Hopefully this gives an idea of the lining/block interface.  I may have a small diameter boroscope at work which could peek inside but I’m not overly keen to rummage.
 

Similar to your photo?

[Blank face]

11 hours ago, Moray said:

Hello Blank Face, so my best efforts with an iPhone and a torch (and my daughter as a helper) this is the best I can get. Hopefully this gives an idea of the lining/block interface.  I may have a small diameter boroscope at work which could peek inside but I’m not overly keen to rummage.
 

Similar to your photo?

Thanks! To me this doesn’t look like Mittenwald work, though I actually can’t tell what it is either. What about the rib joints?

[Blank face]

It looks more like the way to insert the linings like Jacob’s showing here ( not saying it’s Schweitzer): https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/362271-mittenwald-and-related-linings-let-in-with-a-point/

 

[Moray]

11 hours ago, Blank face said:

Thanks! To me this doesn’t look like Mittenwald work, though I actually can’t tell what it is either. What about the rib joints?

Hello Blank face, hopefully this is what you’re looking for? If not please let me know and I can take more photos (sorry straying into unknown territory now!).  Thanks for looking anyway.

[Ratcliffiddles]

13 hours ago, Moray said:

Hello Blank face, hopefully this is what you’re looking for? If not please let me know and I can take more photos (sorry straying into unknown territory now!).  Thanks for looking anyway.

 

 

 

Thanks Moray, whilst blank face doesn't see Mittenwald in the linings/blocks, I again see absolutely no reasons why they couldn't be.  Neither of us have the benefit of X-ray eyes, so the way lings end in the block is still speculative.  The rib miters, although slightly rounded in parts, seem to fit the Mittenwald construction. and now you've posted the lower rib picture...  You even have the "Mittenwald notch", and the original flat (typical) 19th century dropped down saddle. 

I really do think it is a Mittenwald fiddle.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

with a badly cracked neck heel, unrepaired

[Moray]

6 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

Thanks Moray, whilst blank face doesn't see Mittenwald in the linings/blocks, I again see absolutely no reasons why they couldn't be.  Neither of us have the benefit of X-ray eyes, so the way lings end in the block is still speculative.  The rib miters, although slightly rounded in parts, seem to fit the Mittenwald construction. and now you've posted the lower rib picture...  You even have the "Mittenwald notch", and the original flat (typical) 19th century dropped down saddle. 

I really do think it is a Mittenwald fiddle.

Thanks, I was wondering what that little notch was and didn’t know if it was a defect or deliberate. 

5 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

with a badly cracked neck heel, unrepaired

Indeed. Back to the luthier (it wasn’t Graham Welsh but will track him down anyway) at some point.