Soya Bean Oil Varnish

[Randall The Restorer]

Dear Pegbox friends,

Please share enlightened comments or experience-based advice on using soya Oil  based varnish for stringed instruments. 

Years ago, the Varathane varnish brand replaced linseed/flaxseed with soya oil for various reasons, two of them being that soya oil is much lighter in colour (like white wine) and doesn't darken (as much) with age. It also dries faster which I have experienced when using linseed oil vs soya oil based canvas filler on cedar-canvas canoes. And soya oil has a milder smell compared to linseed oil or tung oil.

This light coloured varnish allows for a non-traditional "blonde" instrument that looks good and appeals to many people - especially steel string guitarists - but in the past required nitrocellulose lacquer or super-blonde shellac. Shellac and lacquer finishes are challenging to apply and maintain and have different sonic qualities.

Atrisans in ancient China and Korea were using soya oil based varnishes and inks many centuries before Amati and Stradivari were born. That should count for a lot.

Thanks in advance for your input. Humour is welcome but keep it clean and keep it friendly and NO politics!

Sincerely,

Randy O'Malley

PS Feel free to discuss Soy Sauce as a gound and colorant.

[Andreas Preuss]

In violin making there are  plenty of undiscovered materials. Somehow the whole industry got hypnotized by looking back into its own future. The ‘negative’ effect (depends how one sees it) is that material suppliers don’t carry unusual products like soy bean oil.  (A quick search on Kremer pigments didn’t pull up any results) So that’s already a big ‘turn off’. 
 
One might wonder what effect the use of linseed oil had for the appearance of aged varnish from the golden period? Somehow the effect of yellowing might have enhanced the intensity of the red components in the varnish. 
 
However when violin expertise in the future will rely more on laboratory results to form an opinion soy bean oil discovered as component in the varnish might put an instrument in the ‘Chinese school’ and this thought alone might drive makers away from it.

————-

I have tried long ago soy sauce as ground colorant. I didn’t like it so it landed in the list of products marked ‘test failed’. 

[JacksonMaberry]

Here are some extracts from some of my reference texts. 

Soy, like hemp, is at best a semi-drying oil. The discussions in these photos of iodine number and fatty acid disposition should make that pretty clear.

Where have you read of East Asian use of soya oil as a drying oil? I'd be curious to read it, as it contrasts a bit with what I've read before. It's used as an additive (although linseed, which does grow there, and perilla are preferred) in urushi lacquer for manipulability and plasticity. 

[JacksonMaberry]

In any case, soy and other oils can be modified to make them better drying. As to why Varethane switched, one needs look only a cost for bulk oil. They did not replace linseed with soy because it was better, but because it was cheaper.

Sherwin Williams did the same thing, switching first from linseed to hemp and then to petrochemicals and vegetable oil. 

I definitely understand the desire to learn and to find alternatives, hence why I have read so extensively on oils. But is there a particular reason that linseed oil isn't working for you?

If you want a genuinely good alternative, as I mentioned in your hemp thread perilla really is the best varnish oil that isn't tung (which is too tough for fiddles).

[JacksonMaberry]

Notes on Perilla, as well as an extremely compact discussion of the function of drying oil. Read that, then go back to the chart above and you can very quickly dial in on the small handful of oils that are worth exploring and the large group that are not. 

[Steve Voigt]

Jackson covered the important stuff—I’ll just add a couple things. 
First, the claim that it dries faster than linseed is flatly not true. Yes, I have tried it. You need a healthy slug of cobalt if you want it to dry.

Second, light color and relative lack of yellowing is going to be a nonissue in violin varnish, especially if you refine cold pressed linseed oil. The only time soy is going to matter for this is if you want to make white paint. That’s one of the reasons it became used in paint manufacturing, along with, as Jackson said, the low price. 
I’ve made a nice paint vehicle by bodying soy oil for a couple hours, adding tung, and cooking for a couple more hours. It makes a very glossy paint, and the soy makes it more brushable and solubilizes the tung oil. But I wouldn’t use it in varnish—especially violin varnish. 

[Randall The Restorer]

3 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Here are some extracts from some of my reference texts. 

Soy, like hemp, is at best a semi-drying oil. The discussions in these photos of iodine number and fatty acid disposition should make that pretty clear.

Where have you read of East Asian use of soya oil as a drying oil? I'd be curious to read it, as it contrasts a bit with what I've read before. It's used as an additive (although linseed, which does grow there, and perilla are preferred) in urushi lacquer for manipulability and plasticity. 

My parents were told of soya oil use in East Asia by the artisans in Japan and Hong Kong who sold them furniture and paintings and brush writings - that was in April 1969. They accompanied the Toronto Symphony Orchestra on their tour of Japan.

[Randall The Restorer]

12 minutes ago, Steve Voigt said:

Jackson covered the important stuff—I’ll just add a couple things. 
First, the claim that it dries faster than linseed is flatly not true. Yes, I have tried it. You need a healthy slug of cobalt if you want it to dry.

Second, light color and relative lack of yellowing is going to be a nonissue in violin varnish, especially if you refine cold pressed linseed oil. The only time soy is going to matter for this is if you want to make white paint. That’s one of the reasons it became used in paint manufacturing, along with, as Jackson said, the low price. 
I’ve made a nice paint vehicle by bodying soy oil for a couple hours, adding tung, and cooking for a couple more hours. It makes a very glossy paint, and the soy makes it more brushable and solubilizes the tung oil. But I wouldn’t use it in varnish—especially violin varnish. 

I agree about the cobalt. Every gallon of canoe canvas filler has several ounces of Japan Dryer regardless of the species of oil used.

 

[LCF]

1 hour ago, Steve Voigt said:

Jackson covered the important stuff—I’ll just add a couple things. 
First, the claim that it dries faster than linseed is flatly not true. Yes, I have tried it. You need a healthy slug of cobalt if you want it to dry.

Second, light color and relative lack of yellowing is going to be a nonissue in violin varnish, especially if you refine cold pressed linseed oil. The only time soy is going to matter for this is if you want to make white paint. That’s one of the reasons it became used in paint manufacturing, along with, as Jackson said, the low price. 
I’ve made a nice paint vehicle by bodying soy oil for a couple hours, adding tung, and cooking for a couple more hours. It makes a very glossy paint, and the soy makes it more brushable and solubilizes the tung oil. But I wouldn’t use it in varnish—especially violin varnish. 

What Steve says, I find it hard to get enough colour into linseed oil brews and definitely don't want it any paler.

One thing which is happening with food grade oil sources is that the good drying oils are being bred out of the commercial seed lines. There are now high oleic sunflower oil and high oleic soy oil varieties, from Monsanto. 'High oleic' means low linolenic and linoleic. It's probably happening to food grade linseed oils too, I haven't heard that yet but it aligns with people's experiences of attempting to make varnishes from some of it. 

There are two main reasons for this trend .

Firstly most prefer the palatability of the monounsaturates. These are more 'buttery" than the double or triple unsaturates which taste quite sharp and nasty. The fishy smell of raw LSO is partly due to the drying oil alpha-linolenic acid. 

Secondly the features that make a great varnish oil, oxidizability (sp?) and subsequent polymerisation, make food oils and items using them go rancid quickly and they gum up the cooking gear. With varnish!

 

Don't eat varnish.

[JacksonMaberry]

1 hour ago, LCF said:

Secondly the features that make a great varnish oil, oxidizability (sp?) and subsequent polymerisation, make food oils and items using them go rancid quickly and they gum up the cooking gear. With varnish!

I agree with most of what you said, but this isn't right. Rancidity is in some senses the opposite of curing/drying - linolenic and linoleic acids are not responsible for those aromas and flavors. Where those acids cure, the others, like stearic, palmitic, oleic, etc become rancid as they oxidize. 

 

[LCF]

29 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I agree with most of what you said, but this isn't right. Rancidity is in some senses the opposite of curing/drying - linolenic and linoleic acids are not responsible for those aromas and flavors. Where those acids cure, the others, like stearic, palmitic, oleic, etc become rancid as they oxidize. 

 

Stearic and palmitic take years to go off and they never ever get gummy. They are compketely greasy. The quick drying oils are the ones which gum up. I've had an open jar of 9live oil in my workshop for more than ten years and it's still as sweet and ckear as the first day it was put there.  

[JacksonMaberry]

1 minute ago, LCF said:

Stearic and palmitic take years to go off and they never ever get gummy. They are compketely greasy. The quick drying oils are the ones which gum up. I've had an open jar of 9live oil in my workshop for more than ten years and it's still as sweet and ckear as the first day it was put there.  

Sorry, I don't think I made my point. Drying is the opposite of rancidity. Drying oils do not smell bad as they cure (oxidize). Non drying oils do. 

[JacksonMaberry]

Gumming/curing =\= rancid. Rancid is marked by aroma and flavor differences, it has nothing to do with curing. 

[LCF]

Rancidity in food is not simple and it isn't a single identifiable thing. It can mean simply something which doesn't taste nice. Then there are smaller amounts of complicated fatty acids, free fatty acids, non glyceride esters, sterols etc in cold pressed raw oils, some which taste bad and some lots of which can actually rot. Plus your 'mucilage'.

Oleic doesn't go rancid. Stearic and palmltic neither -- when I grew up we had tallow candles in the workshop for drawer slides etc and they were already old when I was 0. They had a slightly sheepy moo-ey scent. Definitely no rancidity. There was a problem with rats eating them and rats are picky eaters. 

 

The main problem with the polyunsaturated  drying oils in the food chain is the gumminess. High oxidation rates. They make a mess of a deep frier and eg  cookies made with them go stale quickly. This is why Monsanto have spent so much money developing high oleic seed varieties. 

Btw this is also why seed oils are commonly hydrogenated for food use, to convert the polyunsaturates to full saturates, (with frequent unfortunate side effects such as trans fats.) 

An experiment you can try sometime is to prepare or obtain some free fatty acids : linoleic, linolenic, oleic, palmitic, stearic.  Do a tasting. Polyunsaturated FFAs taste disgusting. Oleic is a little better. Stearic and palmitic taste yummy.

 

 

[JacksonMaberry]

You clearly have more nuanced knowledge of this than I do, which is only from reading manuals about varnish. My only first hand experience is from working as a chef and varnish maker. Still, while much of what you're saying makes sense, it doesn't really click for me based on personal experience with hundreds of samples of various drying oils of various ages, none of which I would every describe as rancid in the way that I would say old sesame or olive or safflower oil has gone rancid in the pantries of my clients and restaurants I've worked at. 

Where is the disconnect here? And, what, if any bearing does it have on Randall's questions? I think we're both wasting his time with this discussion.

[JacksonMaberry]

34 minutes ago, LCF said:

They make a mess of a deep frier and eg  cookies made with them go stale quickly

Nobody fries with linseed oil though... What is your point?

[JacksonMaberry]

37 minutes ago, LCF said:

cold pressed raw oils, some which taste bad and some lots of which can actually rot. Plus your 'mucilage'.

Maybe my confusion results from the fact that I wash and clean my varnish oil. Perhaps if I used unmodified cold pressed oils (which I wouldn't dare though others do) for varnish making I'd get it.

[LCF]

1 hour ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Nobody fries with linseed oil though... What is your point?

People used to around here maybe 20 years ago. Very strong aroma and tastes just like a varnish cookup. All the chip friers have been moving towards high oleic oils or high quality solidified oils but it would be better if they just went back to using dripping.

 

My original  comments were directly relevant to Randy since a lot of soy oil is now high oleic and that will be even less use for varnish than the more traditional varieties. 

[LCF]

1 hour ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Nobody fries with linseed oil though... What is your point?

Btw I'm talking about all polyunsaturated oils versus those problems not just LSO. 

[Steve Voigt]

6 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

 

Where is the disconnect here? And, what, if any bearing does it have on Randall's questions? I think we're both wasting his time with this discussion.

I don’t know anything about rancidity, but agree that the discussion is getting off track! 
I think we can all agree on LCF’s earlier point, that food oils are increasingly being produced in high oleic varieties, and that those are no good for varnish. 
Safflower is a good example. The stuff in the grocery store is high oleic and useless for finishing. But you can get high linoleic, which is much better for our purposes. I recently contacted Utrecht art supplies, which sells safflower for a reasonable price, and they confirmed that theirs was the high linoleic variety. For anyone wanting a light, non-yellowing, but slow-drying oil, I would try this stuff rather than soy. 

[Randall The Restorer]

9 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

You clearly have more nuanced knowledge of this than I do, which is only from reading manuals about varnish. My only first hand experience is from working as a chef and varnish maker. Still, while much of what you're saying makes sense, it doesn't really click for me based on personal experience with hundreds of samples of various drying oils of various ages, none of which I would every describe as rancid in the way that I would say old sesame or olive or safflower oil has gone rancid in the pantries of my clients and restaurants I've worked at. 

Where is the disconnect here? And, what, if any bearing does it have on Randall's questions? I think we're both wasting his time with this discussion.

You are NOT wasting my time. I am learning in linear and lateral directions. I will make good use of everything you have written - as will other readers. We are grateful for your time and efforts.

The smell/odour/aroma of materials is very important to the woodworker, as I explained in a private message to Jackson. The smell given off by the newly finished product is important to the owner and user.

I also have been a professional cook and food scientist, and commercial house painter. I painted many restaurant kitchens. My mother was a pastry chef and artist in oils. My father was a commercial printer, using inks of all sorts.My great grandparents were farmers in Western Ukraine and Saskatchewan; they grew grains and the seed crops that we are discussing. 
All of your input has increased my knowledge and understanding in many areas of my life.

I am now waiting for a South Asian luthier to weigh in on the use of ghee and sesame seed oil in varnish making especially Black sesame seed oil for instruments played at funerals. (joking).

What Naansense!        
I just made  myself hungry. I’m off to my favourite tandoor restaurant.
“Please, can I ‘ave samosa?” 
 

Sincerely,

Randy

 

[LCF]

6 hours ago, Steve Voigt said:

I don’t know anything about rancidity, but agree that the discussion is getting off track! 
I think we can all agree on LCF’s earlier point, that food oils are increasingly being produced in high oleic varieties, and that those are no good for varnish. 
Safflower is a good example. The stuff in the grocery store is high oleic and useless for finishing. But you can get high linoleic, which is much better for our purposes. I recently contacted Utrecht art supplies, which sells safflower for a reasonable price, and they confirmed that theirs was the high linoleic variety. For anyone wanting a light, non-yellowing, but slow-drying oil, I would try this stuff rather than soy. 

A local violin maker, Rex Thompson, a retired scientist who was an early contributor to CAS and a very meticulous person,  made some lovely varnishes with safflower oil. 

 

PS rancidity turned out to be a loaded word, will avoid in future  however degradation of cooking oils is a well funded research topic and that research is useful wrt varnish cooking.

EG: "Effect of water content on thermal oxidation of oleic acid investigated by combination of EPR spectroscopy and SPME-GC-MS"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308814616318313#:~:text=Lipid oxidation of oleic acid,position to the nitronyl group.

 

 

TLDR "This study demonstrated that higher water content in frying systems would contribute to seriously oxidation and degradation of oleic acids."

 

Edited August 14 by LCF
PS

[JacksonMaberry]

38 minutes ago, LCF said:

A local violin maker, Rex Thompson, a retired scientist who was an early contributor to CAS and a very meticulous person,  made some lovely varnishes with safflower oil. 

 

PS rancidity turned out to be a loaded word, will avoid in future  however degradation of cooking oils is a well funded research topic and that research is useful wrt varnish cooking.

EG: "Effect of water content on thermal oxidation of oleic acid investigated by combination of EPR spectroscopy and SPME-GC-MS"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308814616318313#:~:text=Lipid oxidation of oleic acid,position to the nitronyl group.

 

 

TLDR "This study demonstrated that higher water content in frying systems would contribute to seriously oxidation and degradation of oleic acids."

 

Thanks for coming back to rancidity. We're now on the same page. 

I'll second hi-linoleic/linolenic safflower. Still not the best, and does (unsurprising) smell a bit like linseed oil, but it has its advantages.

All drying oils yellow less (some substantially less) if properly washed. 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

I didn't like the smell of my oil varnish so I used to put a dab of vanilla extract under the chin rests to mask the odor.  

A well known soloist tried out one of my violins for me and said: "Well at least it smells nice."

[LCF]

7 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Thanks for coming back to rancidity. We're now on the same page. 

 

Sort of, but pass. ( Varnish is degraded oil.)