Origin of a violin

[Johnny Sun]

Hi everyone, I bought a nice violin from an auction two years ago, it sounds excellent, but the origin is unknown. I once showed some pictures to one of the most authorized experts in the business, he said he doesn't remember he has seen anything similar, but says it looks very nice. My violin maker says it looks Bohemian, some friends say German. Anyways, please share your opinions, I thank you in advance.

P.S, there is a little hole in the right side F-hole, a couple millimeters deep. Does it look like a worm hole or it looks like it's made by someone?  

[martin swan]

That's a nice looking violin.

It looks to have been revarnished or very heavily polished - it's hard to see much texture in the varnish.

The purfling is rather close to the edges, which I would associate with Saxony early 19th century. 

The f-holes sit rather high - what's the back length and the stop length?

[Michael Appleman]

That does look like a worm exit hole. Its position is worrying as it suggests the worm might have been munching its way around the sound-post area before flying off. I hope the damage is minimal. 

It's a shame as the violin does look nicely made. 

[A432]

The peg spacing, in isolation, looks Neapolitan. 

Beautiful old fiddle !

[Johnny Sun]

5 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

That does look like a worm exit hole. Its position is worrying as it suggests the worm might have been munching its way around the sound-post area before flying off. I hope the damage is minimal. 

It's a shame as the violin does look nicely made. 

Dear Michael, thank you for replying. The hole is only 2-3 mm deep, I tested with a tooth pick. It's more like an entry hole than an exit hole. 

[Johnny Sun]

7 hours ago, martin swan said:

That's a nice looking violin.

It looks to have been revarnished or very heavily polished - it's hard to see much texture in the varnish.

The purfling is rather close to the edges, which I would associate with Saxony early 19th century. 

The f-holes sit rather high - what's the back length and the stop length?

Thank you very much Martin.The back length is 35.4-5, Stop length I haven't measured, will tell you later. 

[Michael Appleman]

14 hours ago, Johnny Sun said:

Dear Michael, thank you for replying. The hole is only 2-3 mm deep, I tested with a tooth pick. It's more like an entry hole than an exit hole. 

They don't usually make visible entry holes. They're very small larvae when they enter, then they eat and tunnel and grow. They exit when they're ready to turn into beetles, fly away, mate and lay more eggs. If this hole really is only 2-3 mm deep, then great, but I fear it's more likely the tunnel makes a sharp turn and gives the impression of stopping.

[Johnny Sun]

14 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

They don't usually make visible entry holes. They're very small larvae when they enter, then they eat and tunnel and grow. They exit when they're ready to turn into beetles, fly away, mate and lay more eggs. If this hole really is only 2-3 mm deep, then great, but I fear it's more likely the tunnel makes a sharp turn and gives the impression of stopping

Thank you. In this case, what can I do? Do I have to remove the whole top and check up?

[Riccardo964]

Woodworms on violins and in other instruments is a war we can't win.

[LCF]

6 hours ago, Johnny Sun said:

Thank you. In this case, what can I do? Do I have to remove the whole top and check up?

You could start by scrutinising very closely both inside and out with good lighting. On the inside if you can borrow one, use an inspection (probe) camera. As discussed here recently. 

[Michael Appleman]

7 hours ago, Johnny Sun said:

Thank you. In this case, what can I do? Do I have to remove the whole top and check up?

Careful inspection, as LCF wrote. If there is no visible distortion or compression caused by the bridge/soundpost, the area is probably sound, as if there were worm damage, I'd expect the area would have been dangerously weakened. Is there a soundpost or breast patch?

[Andreas Preuss]

I would rather like to know how the interior work looks like.

 

[Johnny Sun]

On 8/7/2024 at 7:10 AM, LCF said:

You could start by scrutinising very closely both inside and out with good lighting. On the inside if you can borrow one, use an inspection (probe) camera. As discussed here recently. 

Thank you very much LCF. Outside is clean. Very clean. I can check with inspection camera at a violin maker friend. 

[Johnny Sun]

On 8/5/2024 at 5:59 PM, A432 said:

The peg spacing, in isolation, looks Neapolitan. 

Beautiful old fiddle !

Is there anything else that looks like Italian to you:) As a buyer I wish it to be Italian, although I know it's hard, since there are many traces of German there. 

[A432]

And at least one straight-on, full frontal picture that 's well enough in focus to show how closely grained the top is.

[martin swan]

10 hours ago, A432 said:

And at least one straight-on, full frontal picture that 's well enough in focus to show how closely grained the top is.

If you expand the photo we were given of the top you can see the grain quite clearly - ridiculously close-grained.

For me the f-hole placing, the model, the purfling/edgework and the wood choice don't seem consistent with Italy. 

[Blank face]

To me the violin looks exactly (at least the body) like the 1811 Friedrich August Glass from Klingenthal, Untersachsenberg pictured in the first volume of Zoebisch; especially if you’re considering the points mentioned by Martin, narrow edgework, corner shape and positions of the ff.

Given the bad condition of the original varnish it’s hard to tell if the scroll belongs or so about 50 years later (probable in my eyes), but the spacing of the pegs is a red herring because many Vogtlandish scrolls are having this feature, especially those with the rather common elongated pegbox, and the scroll is missing all other Neapolitan traits.

 

[A432]

Martin 

Thank you for describing the graining of the top which you, obviously, can see well but I, with only a cheap tablet, cannot, however much I enlarge it. 

[A432]

re. the F. A. Glass, I can only see that both are of the Stainer-with-Amati-Sauce (and vice versa) model(s) common over a wide area around 1700 (your Glass exwmple from Klingenthal,, Matthys Hoffmans in the Netherlands, Matthias Alban in Bozen, etc.) : long, open "C" bouts, drawn out corners, long, narrow A&H Amatise f-holes, &c. 

What pique my intrest are the (vertically) stocky build, the high-arched top, the exceptionally deep ribs and the ends of the wings that look like a del Gesu's. 

In light of the non-swan pegbox and unexpectedly crack-free top, arguably a top shelf grossradtgeige from maybe 1880 ? 

Really appealing, whatever it is.

[Johnny Sun]

Dear all, I really appreciate your opinions on my violin. I would like to reply you individually, but somehow I am only allowed to post 1-2 everyday. Does anyone know whether I could talk with the admin and ask for a larger number of posts? 

Let me reply to some of you: 1. To A432 The pictures have quite high definition, if you expand the picture, you could see many details. The grains of the top are unusually close. 

2. To Blank Face, Do German violins from 1800s normally have a larger scale and relatively wide? This violin is 35.4-5cm, and quite slim, especially the shoulder. To me, the picture you post is similar to my violin, while the F-hole placing are not quite the same. Yours is wider at the top eyes. 

To Martin, This violin is almost crack free. Have you seen any violin that is in this condition from 1800 or before? The reason I ask this is because a friend of mine doesn't believe this is an antique violin but a modern copy:)

Thank you all again. 

 

 

 

[Shelbow]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sun said:

Dear all, I really appreciate your opinions on my violin. I would like to reply you individually, but somehow I am only allowed to post 1-2 everyday. Does anyone know whether I could talk with the admin and ask for a larger number of posts? 

Let me reply to some of you: 1. To A432 The pictures have quite high definition, if you expand the picture, you could see many details. The grains of the top are unusually close. 

2. To Blank Face, Do German violins from 1800s normally have a larger scale and relatively wide? This violin is 35.4-5cm, and quite slim, especially the shoulder. To me, the picture you post is similar to my violin, while the F-hole placing are not quite the same. Yours is wider at the top eyes. 

To Martin, This violin is almost crack free. Have you seen any violin that is in this condition from 1800 or before? The reason I ask this is because a friend of mine doesn't believe this is an antique violin but a modern copy:)

Thank you all again. 

 

 

 

If you keep posting until you have 10 posts then your account will be fully unlocked and you can then post freely as many times as you want. Unfortunately the daily post count is limited until you reach the 10th post.

The first few posts need to be approved as a deterrent to spammers, of which there are countless numbers everyday that we moderators have to deal with. (thankfully we catch most people pre approval, so that other forum members don't have to deal with it.).

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sun said:

2. To Blank Face, Do German violins from 1800s normally have a larger scale and relatively wide? This violin is 35.4-5cm, and quite slim, especially the shoulder. To me, the picture you post is similar to my violin, while the F-hole placing are not quite the same. Yours is wider at the top eyes. 

Of course there are some variations within the exact dimensions or proportions of a particular maker or shop from that region, especially because they worked without any molds or exact templates. I also would not claim that the violin is definitely a Glass, could be a related shop, too, as they were all connected to each other by apprenticeship or temporary employment, family relations and so on.

„German violin“ is during the period a category which didn’t exist and can’t be generalized, because there were a lot of different regional styles, Saxon, Bohemian, Bavarian, Mittenwald and some minor.

Of course an early 19th century instrument, if kept well and/or used rarely can look like this; OTOH there are damages like varnish loss, wear and scratches present. Style and condition put it for me clearly into the first half of the 19th century, with exception of the scroll, which could be a later addition from the same region.

[Johnny Sun]

On 8/9/2024 at 12:04 PM, Shelbow said:

If you keep posting until you have 10 posts then your account will be fully unlocked and you can then post freely as many times as you want. Unfortunately the daily post count is limited until you reach the 10th post.

The first few posts need to be approved as a deterrent to spammers, of which there are countless numbers everyday that we moderators have to deal with. (thankfully we catch most people pre approval, so that other forum members don't have to deal with it.).

Thank you for explaining Shelbow.

[Johnny Sun]

Guys, you are right! Today I tested the worm hole with a thin metal tread, it is not 2mm, but 2cm deep.... It could be deeper. You guys are amazing. 

What should I do with it now? Should I loosen the strings to release tbe pressure? There is no visible distortion are the sound post area, maybe a little concave, very subtle.