I bit of help please

[Easy]

This is written on the inside top of a 1841 Martin Baur (Stuttgart court maker at the time) cello.  I can read some of it, but not all. I'd much appreciate a full translation.

Cheers,

George

 

 

[baroquecello]

I'd say it says

"Martin Baur

Stuttgart 1839

für Max Bohrer's Sohn"

The last line translates as "for the son of Max Bohrer". Max Bohrer was a rather famous cellist in the first half of the 19th century. That is quite special, if t is true. May we see the rest of the instrument?

[Easy]

 

Of course.

It was thoroughly examined by Roland Feller, and it is as it says it is.  Roland is closing his shop in San Francisco and not taking on anymore projects (he's worked on many for me over the years) .... but, he did say he'd really like to be the one to restore this 3/4 size cello. 

It's now being restored by a very capable luthier that was referred by Roland.  The last picture (with toung depressor repair) was taken when the top was removed.

Edited July 31 by Easy

[baroquecello]

That is very interesting! Congratulations on your find! I'm a pro that because of health issues has to play on a small 7/8 or large 3/4 cello. I know it is hard to find something with a history like this. Did your restorer comment on the projection and the neck overstand? They both look rather high to me; are they original? I'm asking because I often wonder wether acoustically a higher overstand and higher projection (compared to a 4/4) wouldn't be the way to go on smaller instruments. Are you keeping the Klengel end pin or are you replacing it? The tail piece (not the tail cord, obviously) could be original, will you keep it?

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, Easy said:

The last picture (with toung depressor repair) was taken when the top was removed.

I like tongue depressor and Popsicle stick reinforcements almost as much as I like rectal thermomethers.

[Ratcliffiddles]

These pictures are really unhelpful due to the angles. Straight-on images with no distortion would be infinitely better.

From what I see it looks like a Mittenwald cello.

 

 

[Blank face]

9 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

From what I see it looks like a Mittenwald cello.

What should be expected that it is; like so many others this was a repair shop dealing with bought in instruments.

According to Lüttgendorf Martin Baur (who mustn't be confused with the several members of the Bauer family) was a trumpet player of the Stuttgart military, who was repairing the instruments of the court theatre. For this activity he was given the title of a Hofgeigenmacher, simply because there wasn't any other in the town at the time.

Though he was sent by the king to learn for one year at the Thumhart shop in Munich that can't be a formal training as violin maker, because that would have lasted several years, a period as a journeyman and at least a Meisterprüfung; most probably he learned just some necessary skills there to repair and set up string instruments. Just for economical reasons it would have been more favourable to sell Mittenwald made instruments, especially fractional, than to make such oneself. I'm a bit confused why the inscription is dated 1839 but the label tells 1841. Perhaps both were applied during different repairs?

[jacobsaunders]

I would have guessed the date of production for a Mittenwald Verleger cello later than either 1839 or 1841, so that I wonder if the label/inscription isn’t a just red herring

[Blank face]

52 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I would have guessed the date of production for a Mittenwald Verleger cello later than either 1839 or 1841, so that I wonder if the label/inscription isn’t a just red herring

Yeah, that’s another valid consideration, but taking it at face value it would not make much of a difference IMO.

All the Thumhart Munich I had and have seen were just Mittenwald Verlegers either, also the bows with his brand are considered to be of Mittenwald origin now.

[Christopher Jacoby]

14 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

These pictures are really unhelpful due to the angles. Straight-on images with no distortion would be infinitely better.

From what I see it looks like a Mittenwald cello.

 

 

Those are photos taken by the Charity Shop he got it from! Nice score...

[Hempel]

The inscription is a curious admixture of Latin script and Kurrentschrift.  For the Biedermeier period I would expect the whole inscription to be Kurrentschrift.

There are other irregularities in this inscription that would certainly raise questions whether this was indeed written by Martin Baur (or a worker of his shop), and not added later (by someone unrelated).

[jacobsaunders]

2 hours ago, Hempel said:

The inscription is a curious admixture of Latin script and Kurrentschrift.  For the Biedermeier period I would expect the whole inscription to be Kurrentschrift.

There are other irregularities in this inscription that would certainly raise questions whether this was indeed written by Martin Baur (or a worker of his shop), and not added later (by someone unrelated).

Apart from that, one would write a pencil inscription on a belly with (at least) a 4B pencil. Quite apart from that it seems to me to be a Mittenwald Verleger cello from about 1900, which someone has sexed up fo an on-line auction

[Easy]

Thanks for the translation & input everyone, I do appreciate it.  I'll gladly post some better pictures, and perhaps they will provide the necessary infomation for a therory of conclusion. 

Facts as of now-  It's a $48 3/4 size cello that I thought was worth repairing and setting up.  In the process of being repaired and setup, an inscripsion in German was found, that I couldn't translate, but now I've been made aware.

My conclusion - The last word is Sohn (Son), and as to the rest - it is what it is.

Perhaps it'll be a Seagull - not an eagle or falcon, but can soar nonetheless!

Cheers

[baroquecello]

12 hours ago, Blank face said:

According to Lüttgendorf Martin Baur (who mustn't be confused with the several members of the Bauer family) was a trumpet player of the Stuttgart military, who was repairing the instruments of the court theatre. For this activity he was given the title of a Hofgeigenmacher, simply because there wasn't any other in the town at the time.

Though he was sent by the king to learn for one year at the Thumhart shop in Munich that can't be a formal training as violin maker, because that would have lasted several years, a period as a journeyman and at least a Meisterprüfung; most probably he learned just some necessary skills there to repair and set up string instruments. Just for economical reasons it would have been more favourable to sell Mittenwald made instruments, especially fractional, than to make such oneself. I'm a bit confused why the inscription is dated 1839 but the label tells 1841. Perhaps both were applied during different repairs?

While this sounds plausible and even probable, if the Amati site is correct, Lüttgedorf sais a lot more than what you wrote: "In seinem 18. Jahr kam er nach Stuttgart zum Militär und wurde dort der Musik als Trompeter zugetheilt. Er zeigte schon damals so viel Interesse und Talent für die Wiederinstandsetzung gebrauchter Instrumente, dass König Wilhelm I. auf ihn aufmerksam wurde und ihn 1823 auf ein Jahr zu Thumhardt nach München in die Lehre schickte. Im Jahre 1824 zurückgekehrt, gründete er das erste Instrumentengeschäft in Stuttgart, wo seit langen Jahren kein Geigenmacher mehr ansässig war. Er fand sofort als Reparateur, namentlich für das Hoftheater, ausreichende Beschäftigung und verlegte sich später auch auf den Neubau von Geigen, die er mit Sorgfalt ausführte. Auch gute Bögen gingen aus seiner Hand hervor. Im Jahre 1870 übernahm sein Sohn Adolf das Geschäft, von dem es 1873 auf A. Sprenger überging. Martin Baur arbeitete von 1870 an erst noch für seinen Sohn und dann bis zu seinem Tode mit Sprenger zusammen."

Ofcourse, it wouldn't be the only entry by Lüttgendorf that isn't 100% correct, but it doesn't see impossible either.

And I'd agree that this could have been done to"sex up" the instrument, like Jacob proposes, but then would they really have chosen Bohrer, who after his death faded into obscurity rather soon? (I' kind of a freak, knowing him. He doesn't even have a Wikipedia entry)

While it looks rather standard in many ways, and the varnish isn't interesting, I think the woood choice for the ribs and back are really very good. One seldomly sees such beautifully evenly flamed wood of a narrow pattern on a 3/4 cello of that age.

[Blank face]

41 minutes ago, baroquecello said:

While this sounds plausible and even probable, if the Amati site is correct, Lüttgedorf sais a lot more than what you wrote:

I don’t think that Lüttgendorf says anything more of importance than what I summarized. Every dealership mentioned by him was „making excellent instruments“, what usually means they put a lot of effort into labeling them through the ff.

In regards of the OP I feel unable to tell much about the exact age by the poor photos, though I would agree that such an early date seems not very probable and both the style of the handwriting and the inconsistencies of the dating don’t add up to plausibility.