Large wooden body plane for jointing plates, inverted

[violins88]

I once saw Christopher Germain use one of these. Does anyone still use it? I am exploring what’s possible.

 

Thanks.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

14 minutes ago, violins88 said:

I once saw Christopher Germain use one of these. Does anyone still use it? I am exploring what’s possible.

 

Thanks.

That is the method taught at the Chicago School when Chris and I attended.  I still use that setup every now and then as I'm sure others attending at that time do. 

[JacksonMaberry]

Brian Derber advocates for it in his book, and like Jeffrey discussed above he was a Chicago school graduate and later teacher. 

My shopmate, who was more recently at the Chicago school, tells me she learned that method as well but doesn't continue to use it, favoring a no.4 plane. I use a no 6 myself. 

The Chicago plane (for lack of a better term) looks and is used very much like a Cooper's plane for staving barrels. 

[Dr. Mark]

I always use a wooden jointer to joint both the spruce and maple plates.  I love the feel and look of a thin shaving peeling off - but keep in mind I'm a rank amateur.  I also don't know what you mean by 'inverted' so maybe I'm not answering your question...?

[JacksonMaberry]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

I always use a wooden jointer to joint both the spruce and maple plates.  I love the feel and look of a thin shaving peeling off - but keep in mind I'm a rank amateur.  I also don't know what you mean by 'inverted' so maybe I'm not answering your question...?

He means upside down, where the wood is passed along the sole rather than the sole passed along the wood. Typically supported on one end in a vise and the other end on a stave, in luthiery use. In cooperage it's a little different. But in both cases we're talking a plane nearly a meter long. 

My friend that attended the Chicago school complained of the time required to true the sole before each jointing. I haven't tried it myself. 

[Dr. Mark]

Ah - thank you for clarifying.  No I don't invert the plane because it's more effort and I don't see the joy, but my jointer plane is close to a meter long.  I picked it up for $8 in Kennewick some 40 years ago and it still cuts flat and clean - or does when I'm on the ball.  I've never needed to flatten the sole and only sharpened the blade twice, but it went from dry air to dehumidified storage so that may have helped - but now I'm rambling lol.

[Brad Dorsey]

I think that in the video that many of us here have watched showing production in the Chinese violin factory, plate center joints are made with an inverted plane.  To me, this type of plane looks ideal for mass-production.

I have never made a violin, so I have never joined a plate.  But I think it would be easier to create a plane surface on a plate half by moving the wood over a stationary plane than by moving the plane over stationary wood.

Update:  I found the video of the Chinese violin factory, showing the production of Stentor instruments.  A regular type of shooting plane — not an inverted plane — is used for making center joints

[nathan slobodkin]

3 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

He means upside down, where the wood is passed along the sole rather than the sole passed along the wood. Typically supported on one end in a vise and the other end on a stave, in luthiery use. In cooperage it's a little different. But in both cases we're talking a plane nearly a meter long. 

My friend that attended the Chicago school complained of the time required to true the sole before each jointing. I haven't tried it myself. 

I trued mine up once 39 years ago and have never had to do it again. I keep mine hanging on the wall and only use it for violin and viola plates setting it upside down in the bench vise and running the plates over it.

[JacksonMaberry]

1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I trued mine up once 39 years ago and have never had to do it again. I keep mine hanging on the wall and only use it for violin and viola plates setting it upside down in the bench vise and running the plates over it.

Not sure what the issue with the plane at the school she used was, but she didn't like it. She's extremely fastidious, so I trust her when she complains of it. But like I said, haven't seen or used the plane in question. 

[Andrew tkinson]

13 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

He means upside down, where the wood is passed along the sole rather than the sole passed along the wood. Typically supported on one end in a vise and the other end on a stave, in luthiery use. In cooperage it's a little different. But in both cases we're talking a plane nearly a meter long. 

My friend that attended the Chicago school complained of the time required to true the sole before each jointing. I haven't tried it myself. 

Just in case anyone might be interested, on seeing this discussion I took a photo of my coopers jointer plane which resides, dormant, in an upstairs room. I have placed a full sized violin next to it for scale.

This is a medium sized coopers jointer at about 5 1/2 feet long. It has a hole near the end which was used in conjunction with a low pair of 'legs' which had a peg at the top which fitted this hole, to prop this end up from the workshop floor in use. The cooper ran the cask staves over the iron to create the necessary taper and bevels on the wood and could easily check the progress after each stroke.

Needless to say, I have never used it and never will but I just had to have one!

[LCF]

1 hour ago, Andrew tkinson said:

Just in case anyone might be interested, on seeing this discussion I took a photo of my coopers jointer plane which resides, dormant, in an upstairs room. I have placed a full sized violin next to it for scale.

Andrew, when I read this discussion I thought of your strong interest in wooden planes and plane making, and I imagined you probably had made a yard long plane. Or hoped to.  Reality has exceeded my expectations. 

[fiddlecollector]

I saw an antique cast iron one in a reclaimation yard once. It weighed 70 kilos with the prop.

[Andreas Preuss]

If ‘inverted’ means that the plane is pulled instead of pushed, all Japanese planes work like that. On a jointer board this works pretty well.

[fiddlecollector]

8 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

If ‘inverted’ means that the plane is pulled instead of pushed, all Japanese planes work like that. On a jointer board this works pretty well.

upside down

 

[Dr. Mark]

4 hours ago, Andrew tkinson said:

It has a hole near the end which was used in conjunction with a low pair of 'legs' which had a peg at the top which fitted this hole, to prop this end up from the workshop floor in use.

From this and fiddlecollector's photo, I may have incorrectly repurposed the hole in my jointer.  I put a handle in it because it helped me balance pressure on the plane when shooting.

[jacobsaunders]

Looks a bit like some Swiss people cooking a “raclette”

[Dr. Ludwig]

Our family name is Hobel, which translate as plane. Hobelkase is a form of sliced cheese, perhaps originally sliced with something like an inverted plane.

[Dr. Mark]

5 hours ago, Dr. Mark said:

From this and fiddlecollector's photo, I may have incorrectly repurposed the hole in my jointer.  I put a handle in it because it helped me balance pressure on the plane when shooting.

So I had to look this up.  Bill Anderson says there should be a strike button there (missing on mine) to loosen the wedge and iron.

[Woodland]

That’s way I’ve been doing it. I first establish square edges with a bench top jointer/planer, then lock my trying plane upside down in the bench vise for the final edge. I just trued the sole and it’s ready for the next joint. For the record I use an HNT Gordon trying plane.

 

[Dennis J]

I've tried a 22 inch bevel-up jointer held in a bench vise and it is not long enough to comfortably use. I can see how a longer wooden plane might work, but finding a good one would be a problem. Making one would be the best option. But using one would not necessarily produce a flat surface.

I use a No. 4 Veritas bevel-up along with a smaller block plane which I use to level any high spots if necessary. I don't take for granted that the No. 4 will automatically produce a perfectly flat surface either. I carefully check for flatness with a straight edge after each pass with the No. 4 until it is perfect. If it is not I go back to the smaller block before a finishing stroke with the No. 4.

[Wood Butcher]

7 hours ago, Dennis J said:

I've tried a 22 inch bevel-up jointer held in a bench vise and it is not long enough to comfortably use.

What is a 22" plane not long enough for?

[violins88]

Tell me more about the blade and chip breaker. I assume the wooden plane uses a high quality blade and chipbreaker. I like the inverted setup because  it’s easier to drag the wood across the plane than the plane across the wood.

 

Thanks to all who have commented so far. I appreciate it.

And I have to say, regarding the angled blade arrangement, where the blade is not perpendicular to the cutting direction, is something I made 45 years ago, because it seemed to make sense. Then, recently, I found out this is a thing. Been around for years. Rare antique now. A friend in Wellington has one. Works great.

[Dennis J]

15 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

What is a 22" plane not long enough for?

It has only 5 inches of sole forward of the blade opening. So it is fairly awkward trying to plane a 15 inch back or top length of wood with the plane locked in the bench vise. And using such a long plane is also awkward with the wood clamped in the vise.

The sort of plane pictured in Woodland's post would be the best option.

[David Burgess]

22 minutes ago, Dennis J said:

It has only 5 inches of sole forward of the blade opening. So it is fairly awkward trying to plane a 15 inch back or top length of wood with the plane locked in the bench vise.

Works fine for me.

[JacksonMaberry]

Yeah, considering I know at least one cat who joins bellies freehand with a block plane, I'd agree that complaint seems more like what the kids call a "skill issue".