Brad Dorsey Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, arglebargle said: What does cisgendered mean? The usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 21 hours ago, GeorgeH said: Thank you. Me, too. Not all violin makers are cisgendered straight men. Are you asserting that the term "wife" only applies to cisgenders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, David Burgess said: Are you asserting that the term "wife" only applies to cisgenders? George’s note was clear. You want this thread to be deleted once more? Go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 On 7/15/2024 at 9:44 AM, Blank face said: George’s note was clear. You want this thread to be deleted once more? Go on. This thread has been deleted before? I must have missed that. To me, Georges post exhibited a type of hypocrisy in which an emphasis on binary thinking applies to personal causes in which it is useful, but which goes out the window when non-binary personal causes are involved. More specifically in this case, it's as if one should be totally in favor of multiple genders, or not. That exhibits severely binary thinking, which should be wholly incompatible with more than two genders, from a logic standpoint alone. However, I do realize that not everyone puts much reliance on logic when formulating their opinions, so we get what we get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan slobodkin Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 Back to the OP’s original question. Since you have just graduated from school and are presumable fairly young there are several paths which you could take. If you can find a good maker who needs help due to high demand and or aging body I’m sure you could learn a great deal helping to make their instruments while continuing to make your own in your spare time. Otherwise, large repair shops are often looking for technicians and if you can find a good one which works on good instruments you could refine your physical skills as well as seeing what you are trying to accomplish with your own work and again keep making instruments in your spare time. Repair and restoration work is interesting and can be lucrative as well as preparing you for opening your own retail shop which can be VERY lucrative. Do note that if you are learning from someone you want them to be very good at what they do and a good reputation amongst their colleagues is probably a better way to judge that than just success in business or local reputation. Lastly all jokes aside having another bread winner in the family really IS a great help whenever you start your own business because you might be able to work towards longer term goals rather than having to sacrifice them for short term necessity. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 Tips to becoming a successful violin maker? I am assuming that "success" implies a successful violin making business. There are many more people successfully making violins than there are successfully making a business out of making violins. - Study the market - How big is it? What is the current demand? What will be the future demand? - Study the competition - including competition with instruments being resold, and the quality, quantity, and price of new commercial instruments. Who are your future competition? - Study your marketing - how are you going to bring your violins to the market? How are you going to reach customers. What is your unique selling proposition? How many will you make annually, and what price will you sell them for? In short, you need a business plan. There are software applications and websites that can walk you through the process of writing a business plan. Writing a business plan requires discipline and significant research, but if you actually do it with fearless honesty, it will give you a much deeper understanding of the requirements, risks, and potential rewards of trying to build a successful violin making business. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 23 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: Tips to becoming a successful violin maker? I am assuming that "success" implies a successful violin making business. There are many more people successfully making violins than there are successfully making a business out of making violins. - Study the market - How big is it? What is the current demand? What will be the future demand? - Study the competition - including competition with instruments being resold, and the quality, quantity, and price of new commercial instruments. Who are your future competition? - Study your marketing - how are you going to bring your violins to the market? How are you going to reach customers. What is your unique selling proposition? How many will you make annually, and what price will you sell them for? In short, you need a business plan. There are software applications and websites that can walk you through the process of writing a business plan. Writing a business plan requires discipline and significant research, but if you actually do it with fearless honesty, it will give you a much deeper understanding of the requirements, risks, and potential rewards of trying to build a successful violin making business. Good luck! All a total waste of time. Just muddle on, will be just as succesful or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violadamore Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 On 7/13/2024 at 8:58 PM, duane88 said: Marry well. On 7/14/2024 at 12:04 PM, duane88 said: I said Marry Well. No gender implied. Bottom line is that basic needs must be met. Rent, Insurance, food, ect. Either someone has to help you or, as I did, Work a full time job in your previous profession until things pencil out. I can tell you from personal experience, that is tiring. Yup. And when you're tired, a wealthy spouse can rub your back or feet, too. On 7/14/2024 at 12:00 PM, NMG said: Thank you all for triying to help me, and sorry if I offended some of you with my jokes (of course Mr. Swan I highly respect people with experience but it's always important to try the things you shouldn't do by yourself to figure out if it really is that bad). Anyway, to really present myself in a few words, I graduated two weeks ago from the Swiss School of Violin Making (and I love Bergonzi). I'm really into Antiquing but also appreciate a nice full varnished instrument, it's also for me the only good starting point for a good antiqued one. I love experiencing with varnish and wood browning(staining). Also I love to control the whole process of making and trying to extrapolate this idea, I already processed several m3 of Tonewood, from spruce to maple to boxwood etc. Also trying to work with alternatives to ebony. I made only 4 violins, a viola and a cello but I try to favor quality rather than quantity. I love a nice cut bridge and good sounding new instruments. Wish you all a nice Sunday ! Welcome to MN. Don't let the negative reactions to your humor upset you. I've been offending some people with my jokes for well over a decade now. The ones who aren't amused probably aren't good company, anyway. Unfortunately, some of the best humorists here have died off. MN continually needs new generations of comedians to lighten the atmosphere. IMHO, historically, the majority discover you can make violins, or you can make money. Most financially successful "makers" (as Jacob has repeatedly told us ) have actually been dealers, workshop owners, resellers, and such, though many have passed themselves off as makers on their labels. Many of the most famous names, such as Stradivari himself, employed other violin makers. So did the Amatis, the Guarneris, and dozens of names in Saxony, Bohemia, and Bavaria. Even if most employees were family members, it's still a workshop if you don't do everything yourself. What most working makers seem to do is get into repairs, dealing, appraisals, and rentals, which equates to opening a violin shop. The best way to prepare for that is probably working for an existing one, to learn how it's done. A lot of folks here have done that. Reading MN (and luthiers sites linked to it in various threads), can help you grasp a lot about the business realities. I'm just one of the retired people here who have "flipped" violins, repairing cheap old violins, setting them up, and selling them to pay for my continuing hobby. I haven't made a fortune at it, but I didn't need to, and have better than broken even, while learning a lot about the business, getting a small stable of good violins that I play on (that's my current focus), and I've had a load of fun doing it. The situation for a working luthier starting out is much more challenging. I wish you blessings and great good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said: All a total waste of time. Just muddle on, will be just as succesful or not There are many people who start and then "muddle on" in businesses that have very little chance of success and they end up broke or near broke after having wasted time, money, and effort. Had they made the effort to really understand and plan the business that they were getting into and the risks associated with it, they might have made different choices. "Muddle on" is a strategy for business failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsherB Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 6 hours ago, arglebargle said: What does cisgendered mean? It's just a term for people who live as the gender declared at their birth. It's useful when you need to distinguish between cisgender, trans, non-binary, etc.. in conversation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 41 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: "Muddle on" is a strategy for business failure. Sometimes, and other times not. There are plenty of carefully "planned" businesses which have failed, and others which have become successful by "flying by the seat of their pants", hard work, and good intuition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 59 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: There are many people who start and then "muddle on" in businesses that have very little chance of success and they end up broke or near broke after having wasted time, money, and effort. Had they made the effort to really understand and plan the business that they were getting into and the risks associated with it, they might have made different choices. "Muddle on" is a strategy for business failure. please yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 39 minutes ago, David Burgess said: Sometimes, and other times not. There are plenty of carefully "planned" businesses which have failed, and others which have become successful by "flying by the seat of their pants", hard work, and good intuition. "According to 2024 data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, 20.4% of businesses fail in their first year after opening, 49.4% fail in their first 5 years, and 65.3% fail in their first 10 years." I would surmise that the failure of violin-making businesses is even higher. As the saying goes: "Failing to plan is planning for failure." So you may encourage "flying by the seat of [your] pants" as a strategy, but I wouldn't, and I hope the pilot of any plane that I am flying on does not either. And one might add to the list in this thread that another way to become a successful violin maker is to born into a family of one or more successful violin makers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, GeorgeH said: As the saying goes: "Failing to plan is planning for failure." Well, that right there settles the matter, doesn't it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, GeorgeH said: "According to 2024 data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, 20.4% of businesses fail in their first year after opening, 49.4% fail in their first 5 years, and 65.3% fail in their first 10 years." I would surmise that the failure of violin-making businesses is even higher. As the saying goes: "Failing to plan is planning for failure." So you may encourage "flying by the seat of [your] pants" as a strategy, but I wouldn't, and I hope the pilot of any plane that I am flying on does not either. And one might add to the list in this thread that another way to become a successful violin maker is to born into a family of one or more successful violin makers. The two main causes of failure are borrowing money from banks, and “forgetting” to pay out stuff sold on commission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 8 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: The two main causes of failure are borrowing money from banks, and “forgetting” to pay out stuff sold on commission Yep, financing and cash flow. You can’t forget about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan slobodkin Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 49 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: The two main causes of failure are borrowing money from banks, and “forgetting” to pay out stuff sold on commission Which brings up the interesting and important subject of ethics in the trade which a newly minted violin maker should be aware of. Obviously “forgetting” to pay one’s bills will result not only in failure but possibly jail time. What is not so obvious is the decision of whether or not to pay commissions to teachers either above or under the table. There is no question this will increase sales but I personally have never done it. It is my opinion that teachers should ask for a flat or hourly consulting fee if they help with an instrument purchase but should be up front about it and be paid by the student who they are helping and not acting as a salesperson unknown to the buyer. If they are paid by the student they can really try to find the best instrument possible without conflict. Any new maker will be confronted with this at some point and should do some thinking about how they want to handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Alpert Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 Great advice from very experienced people here, thank you all for letting the $#/+ fly!! Even the muddling about, and pants flying. I think most of these points are valid, even though they are often conflicting. You might say, "what?!" I mean, there are as many ways as there are people, and more. Probably most "successful" people in this field are making it in their own unique combination of these ways, which wouldn't work for someone else. A few ideas that were partly said, in other words... these are working for me: Dream big. Work hard. Be brave to bite off more than you can chew, but only a little bit too much at a time, too big bites will burn you, perhaps badly. Get lucky. Avoid loans (and their sharks) if possible. Plan, yes, all that market analysis etc., swot, pestle, good, but make at least 3 plans at a time because probably 2 of them will fail Keep sharp books and records, train your eye and your hands. Be suspicious of everything anyone (you don't know REALLY REALLY well) tells you, nothing is really too good to be true. Be prepared to be disappointed, tricked, hungry, frustrated, and yet try again. Be honest even though you suspect others aren't! (If only for the principle of it and the respect for your own integrity!) Make friends with teachers, not bribes! What cred do I have to say any of this? 20 years since school, but only 3 years co-running our own shop, doing mostly repairs and restorations for professional players. Still planning and dreaming myself, although many of my plans and dreams have come true. Keep dreaming, planning and working!! And as @MANFIO said, ask great players and listen closely, after all they are why and for whom we work (not for the aesthetics, however much they intrigue). Cooperation is very rewarding in this business, and I love all y'all MNers for your conversations! Good luck and good will to all who offer the same! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arglebargle Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 12 hours ago, GeorgeH said: Look it up. Why don't you just tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deans Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 Many really successful makers spent a chunk of their career working for a big shop, or even all of their career. If you dont need to be the boss it could be good option. Plus you can bump into more players and have access to diverse instruments. Of course there are downsides I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted July 16 Report Share Posted July 16 46 minutes ago, deans said: Many really successful makers spent a chunk of their career working for a big shop, or even all of their career. If you dont need to be the boss it could be good option. Plus you can bump into more players and have access to diverse instruments. Of course there are downsides I'm sure. The Beckers, you know, worked for Lewis in Chicago, and the agreement seemed to allow them to retreat to the lake house and build for the summers. Sounds pretty ideal to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erlkonig Posted July 16 Report Share Posted July 16 Move around, work for various people, see as many instruments as you can. One thing I will say, as someone that lives and works in Switzerland, do not stay here to get experience. You will be badly paid in comparison to what you can earn in Switzerland, but you will gain far more knowledge and experience if you leave and seek out work and experience elsewhere....just my 2 centimes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerardM Posted July 16 Report Share Posted July 16 20 hours ago, David Burgess said: Well, that right there settles the matter, doesn't it! In Cremona it was said “As rich as Stradivarius “ In the modern era can we say “As rich as David Burgess “:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted July 16 Report Share Posted July 16 49 minutes ago, GerardM said: In Cremona it was said “As rich as Stradivarius “ In the modern era can we say “As rich as David Burgess “:-) I'm optimistic that my neighborhood sidewalk lemonade stand will bring in lots of money, once I scare those little girls with the competing lemonade stand away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerardM Posted July 16 Report Share Posted July 16 2 hours ago, David Burgess said: I'm optimistic that my neighborhood sidewalk lemonade stand will bring in lots of money, once I scare those little girls with the competing lemonade stand away. Careful David a gang of screaming schoolgirls can be quiet scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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