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Just another fake Vuillaume violin?


Karolina

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French violins are best shown to French experts!

As Jeffrey has suggested, if you want to show it in person then Christophe Landon is your best bet in the US.

But in this case either Rampal or Florent Boyer will be able to give you a definitive yes/no appraisal from photos. 
 

For me everything is in the wrong place, though each detail is quite persuasive individually …

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It appeared to me that the OP is located in Germany, so the best could be to send photos to Rampal (probably the will charge you for this): http://www.vatelot-rampal.com/en/expertise-certificates/

Accidentally I found online photos of early Vuillaumes from reliable sources, 1826 #41 https://beinfushi.com/product/vuillaume/

(photo will enlarge by right mouse click) and 1827 #60 https://ingleshayday.com/notable-sales-instrument/a-violin-by-jean-baptiste-vuillaume-16/

Jeffrey gave also a photo of #53 made 1827. Could be #80 for another 1827 believable? To me both of the above violins look rather close.

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Posted (edited)

Hi everyone,

Initially I was convinced you'd just say it's clearly not a JBV violin. Now I am not so certain and even more curious what it is.

I am actually based in the UK. I will send photos to one of the experts, probably the one in France and see what they have to say.

@Blank facethank you for the links. Very interesting. 

No41 looks quite similar to mine in many aspects

Edited by Karolina
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2 hours ago, Karolina said:

Hi everyone,

Initially I was convinced you'd just say it's clearly not a JBV violin. Now I am not so certain and even more curious what it is.

I am actually based in the UK. I will send photos to one of the experts, probably the one in France and see what they have to say.

@Blank facethank you for the links. Very interesting. 

No41 looks quite similar to mine in many aspects

You might end up having to edit the subject title of this thread. :lol:

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6 hours ago, Karolina said:

I have decided to send photos to Florent Boyer as this is much cheaper than Rampal.

I will keep you guys posted and keep myself braced for getting my soul crushed haha.

It would be cool if you find out it's a genuine Vuillaume - I hope that it is!

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Posted (edited)

It would be cool indeed.

I am just curious. This whole thing has definitely motivated me to play more again. I am currently buying some nice new strings.

Photos are sent to Boyer...now we wait.

Update: got reply. He's very interested. Says signature looks very typical for JBV.

He'd like to see the violin in person to confirm it is a real one  but obviously I can't just pop over to Paris.

So I guess there is a chance it is indeed a JBV.

Edited by Karolina
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4 hours ago, Karolina said:

It would be cool indeed.

I am just curious. This whole thing has definitely motivated me to play more again. I am currently buying some nice new strings.

Photos are sent to Boyer...now we wait.

Update: got reply. He's very interested. Says signature looks very typical for JBV.

He'd like to see the violin in person to confirm it is a real one  but obviously I can't just pop over to Paris.

So I guess there is a chance it is indeed a JBV.

There are lots of big auctions happening in London in October that are likely to bring in many experts from around the world. I'm sure this will include a number of French experts as well. Check with them to see if they will be travelling to London at that time. This might be a good opportunity for you to arrange an appraisal.

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3 hours ago, Shelbow said:

There are lots of big auctions happening in London in October that are likely to bring in many experts from around the world. I'm sure this will include a number of French experts as well. Check with them to see if they will be travelling to London at that time. This might be a good opportunity for you to arrange an appraisal.

Good idea!

 

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11 hours ago, Karolina said:

 

Update: got reply. He's very interested. Says signature looks very typical for JBV.

He'd like to see the violin in person to confirm it is a real one  but obviously I can't just pop over to Paris.

So I guess there is a chance it is indeed a JBV.

I take it you're dealing with Florent Boyer? 

I don't think you would find anyone with a better knowledge of Vuillaume, or a bigger reference archive (he owns and manages the Violindocs archive).

Is it so difficult to pop over to Paris with the violin? I do it at least once a month :D 

 

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3 hours ago, martin swan said:

I take it you're dealing with Florent Boyer? 

I don't think you would find anyone with a better knowledge of Vuillaume, or a bigger reference archive (he owns and manages the Violindocs archive).

Is it so difficult to pop over to Paris with the violin? I do it at least once a month :D 

 

Martin, not wishing to be a fly in the ointment but I wonder how does this relate to the recent discussion of trans-jurisdictional border issues and customs between UK and EU? 

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11 hours ago, LCF said:

Martin, not wishing to be a fly in the ointment but I wonder how does this relate to the recent discussion of trans-jurisdictional border issues and customs between UK and EU? 

An individual travelling with his/her violin should have no problem, particularly if you can show a return ticket.

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Posted (edited)

So apparently JBV (he could be gangster or a virus with those initials) had a 1cm stamp that he put on the inside next to the inscription. I will go hunting for it today.

And as Boyer put it: she's 200 years old so there is no rush to get to Paris. I am planning to visit family in Germany in September and might do a day trip with over night stay in Paris then. Just need to figure out the logistics.

The violin is French for sure he thinks and the signature is very hard to fake in his opinion.

Edited by Karolina
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Thanks for keeping us updated, and fingers crossed.

So in the meantime, could you perhaps try to shot a more in focus photo of the rib joint, like I tried to process below. This could give a clearer idea how the violin was constructed.

20240713_192605.jpg.2e8bb759684290c8198426e80eb9e9edr2.jpg

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2 hours ago, Karolina said:

I've been trying to find the vuillaume stamp but no luck with my cheap camera.

 

I am not sure of the location in the early instruments, but on the later ones it's often located in the upper bout of the back, and often on the top plate as well.

It's small... and sometimes hard to find with the top on or if there is a buildup of dust or dirt inside the fiddle..

DSC_0277.jpg

 

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43 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Some of the original Vuillaume stamps were auctioned at Bongartz about 20 years ago. I wonder where they might be now and for which purpose.:ph34r:

2013-11-12 23-46-40_0316.jpg

I have known at least two luthiers who could draw a very convincing Vuillaume seraph/hieroglyph freehand.  Maybe one of them bought them.   :) 

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19 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

I have known at least two luthiers who could draw a very convincing Vuillaume seraph/hieroglyph freehand.  Maybe one of them bought them.   :) 

Is the stamp inside the corpus the same as the bow or bridge stamps?

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