Karolina Posted July 13 Report Share Posted July 13 (edited) Hello, I have had my violin for many years, bought from an old man, who had a selection of old violins, about 25 years ago in Germany. I love it, it sounds great and I do not want to sell it but I am curious about its origin. Label says Vuillaume and there is also a hand written note inside (impossible to take picture of) saying J. B. Vuillaume Paris N80 1827 or 1884, hard to decipher. Edited July 13 by Karolina Spelling error Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karolina Posted July 13 Author Report Share Posted July 13 (edited) To add: of course Vuillaume was dead in 1875 so that would be a clear no but I am not 100% what the date says....definitely 18 but not sure about the two other numbers. Need one of those little endoscopic cameras to take a picture. Edited July 13 by Karolina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiemViolins Posted July 13 Report Share Posted July 13 You mean Vuillaume not Villaume! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetler Posted July 13 Report Share Posted July 13 Don't know, but it certainly is a nice French violin. You should definitely check the inside with an inspection camera to look for more clues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetler Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 Do you have pictures of the corner blocks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germain Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 I have an early Vuillaume violin from 1828/1830. Your scroll doesn't seem right as the early JBV violins have somewhat of a flat top scroll when looking from the side. Also the pin under the button should be 1/3 under the purling and about 2/3 visible on a real JBV. Try to get the article on early JBV violins from the Strad Magazine from Feb. 2020 I believe. Still your instrument looks really nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karolina Posted July 14 Author Report Share Posted July 14 (edited) I have taken some internal images with a little endoscopic camera I borrowed from a friend. Very dusty in there but maybe someone can decipher? I think it says No 80 1837 Edited July 14 by Karolina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetler Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 Number 80 should most likely be 1827 on a real jbv it seems. I am surprised that more knowledgeable people are not commenting. I would take it to someone who really knows their stuff and hear what they say. It it is probably quite valuable even if not real Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karolina Posted July 14 Author Report Share Posted July 14 I agree 1837 doesn't seem to fit with No 80. However, I am not sure it says 1837. I will try to get better images tomorrow. I tried to take pictures of the corner blocks as well. Not sure they are good enough? Whatever it is, someone in the 19th century made a nice violin and put effort into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted July 14 Report Share Posted July 14 I‘m not very experienced in that kind of French violins, but I think that it is rather from the second half of the 19th century, not a JB Vuillaume like it was pointed out for several reasons as pins, scroll, purfling or varnish, maybe not even French; could be also from the K.u.K region or something else. I also agree that it’s nice looking and well made, but it might be difficult to find out what it is. Can you show a photo of the lower rib at the endpin/saddle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germain Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 Here is what I mean about the flat top of the scroll... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeny Mahon Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 Was the inside coated with something at one point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karolina Posted July 16 Author Report Share Posted July 16 (edited) Hi everyone and thanks for your replies. I took more inside photos and one of the endpin. I don't know about coating. I don't know all the violin terms in English (I'm German) so had to Google. I had a read through the 2020 Strad article on Vuillaume violins and it looks like No39 on the picture doesn't have a flattened scroll compared to earlier violins but maybe my eye is just not good enough to pick up on the details. I have taken a screenshot of the labels from the article. Whoever made my violin has done a good job on copying the handwriting. I now think it says 1827 btw. Edited July 16 by Karolina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted July 16 Report Share Posted July 16 Here is the article Karolina is referring to: Link 1 Here is a violin (2 links) listed by Christies Auctions and illustrated on both Christies and Tarisio's website with a similar inscription: Link 1 Link 2 I would be cautious to poo-poo authenticity, or confirm it, on an early Vuillaume based on photos of the markings he used (especially not by comparing them to what he used later on), or on small stylistic variations... I'd say this is a good fiddle to show to one of the French experts. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germain Posted July 16 Report Share Posted July 16 10 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said: I would be cautious to poo-poo authenticity, or confirm it, on an early Vuillaume based on photos of the markings he used (especially not by comparing them to what he used later on), or on small stylistic variations... I'd say this is a good fiddle to show to one of the French experts. Show the instrument to Rampal. Keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted July 16 Report Share Posted July 16 10 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said: Here is the article Karolina is referring to: Link 1 Here is a violin (2 links) listed by Christies Auctions and illustrated on both Christies and Tarisio's website with a similar inscription: Link 1 Link 2 I would be cautious to poo-poo authenticity, or confirm it, on an early Vuillaume based on photos of the markings he used (especially not by comparing them to what he used later on), or on small stylistic variations... I'd say this is a good fiddle to show to one of the French experts. Carry on. Thanks, Jeffrey. The links are very interesting, the instrument photos unfortunately of a very low resolution. They might (or might not) confirm some of the stylistic differences I tried to describe, but maybe just variations of minor significance, that's a bit above my experience as I said. The new picture of the lower rib looks better in regards of the varnish and confirms that it probably started as a one piece rib (whatever this means here). So we should wait what the specialist experts in this field have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted July 17 Report Share Posted July 17 Just a couple of photos of later Vuillaume violins on the bench today (an Il Cannone replica and a Strad replica) illustrating similarities and differences in the details even when the shop was in full swing. The pin photo is the il Cannon replica. Both fiddles have all the internal bells and whistles present in later Vuillaume instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karolina Posted July 17 Author Report Share Posted July 17 (edited) @Jeffrey Holmesdid you post a reply before your last one? I got an email but it doesn't show up here. Thanks for posting the violin pictures. I am no expert of course and find it tricky to see the details but 1. Even the two JBV violins look different to each other. 2. The "spripeyness" is different to my violin, almost like a smaller tool was used to carve the wood of my violin compared to the ones you showed. 3. As you say yours are later models. Assuming there is a slim chance of mine being a real JBV violin from 1827...it might look very different. I don't know. 4. The colour/ varnish of the two shown on your photos has a similar yellow/ golden hue to my violin. 5. Sadly I cannot just pop over to Paris to show my instrument to a French violin expert. I might be left hanging in suspense until I can go on a trip to France. I spent a considerable amount of time studying different JBV violins last night and am not any wiser just more intrigued. I might have found a new obsession I wish I could ask the guy I got it from a bit more about it but unfortunately he is now dead. I still remember the smirk on his face when he told me that there is something written inside. Maybe he knew something? I might never find out. Edited July 17 by Karolina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germain Posted July 17 Report Share Posted July 17 Some of the greatest makers of the time were employed by JBV. It is very possible that your instrument was made by one of them. While, a visit to Paris may be difficult perhaps show it to one of the auction gurus such as Jason from Tarisio or Peter from Brampton’s during their free evaluations. Another option is to send pictures to Dmitry Gindin on his website for about $100 you will have a very strong opinion on what the instrument might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 10 hours ago, Karolina said: I still remember the smirk on his face when he told me that there is something written inside. Maybe he knew something? I might never find out. The part of your story about “the old man in Germany with a selection of violins” was what me made sure in the first moment that it can’t be real. This sort of Stubenhändler (living room dealers) did know usually exactly what they had, knew all the experts and big dealers and in case there was something written inside it would have been checked three or four times. But one can never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
match Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 I had a good experience with the online valuation by Serge Boyer as an initial opinion for French fiddles. It´s not expensive and a good start for potential further activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germain Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 Who is the NY specialist of French instruments? Landon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 17 hours ago, Karolina said: @Jeffrey Holmes Thanks for posting the violin pictures. I am no expert of course and find it tricky to see the details but 1. Even the two JBV violins look different to each other. That's my point. The two fiddles are different models (Strad & a specific del Gesu) made 7 years apart most likely by different hands in the shop. Even earlier violins had other hands involved. As I said, I'd recommend showing the instrument to one of the French experts. Sorting that fiddle out correctly will probably require someone who is very familiar with early Vuillaumes and other French makers who worked similarly. Most who can offer you a worthwhile and reliable opinion will want to see the instrument personally. The Strad article you mentioned earlier was written by a person who works with Rampal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 46 minutes ago, germain said: Who is the NY specialist of French instruments? Landon? Christophe is a good bet in NY. He's also been involved with one or two publications about the Vuillaume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germain Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 Just realized (from social media) that Eric Blot has recently opened a NY office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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