Violin bows - new v old

[AaronS76]

I have played the violin for more than 40 years yet yesterday I had an experience that blew my mind. I dropped my violin and the fingerboard fell off so have been using my daughters relatively new relatively low-end Otto Jos violin instead. And I have been using her low end bow. Last night I decided to use my bow instead, my bow is not a high-end bow (replacement cost of $1200 AU) but when I swapped bows the improvement in tone of the violin took me by surprise. I had no idea a bow could have that impact. I rosined them both up and tried to be consistent in my use. In the end, it may simply be that I am used to my bow so I can make a nicer sound! 

I have never really put a lot of thought into violin bows other than when I had to purchase the one I have now after my brother sat on my previous bow when I was 12. My fault for leaving it on the lounge when going to the toilet during practice apparently. I still maintain that if he was actually using his brain it wouldn't have happened, but I digress.  

So now I am starting to dig into bows, especially new v old. When I look at the my violins (a German made violin I was gifted when I was 9 made in 1930/40 and a French violin I recently purchased for $1000AU made in the same era) and compare them to the Otto Jos violin my daughter has that I paid $1400AU for, then I see older violins (assuming you find the right one) as being value for money. I wonder whether this holds true for violin bows? An older bow will be cheaper than a new bow with equivalent mounting etc but be of a similar or higher quality. 

Is anyone prepared to provide some thoughts? Am I overthinking this? 

My friend that is still looking to purchase a violin to replace his piece of crap also has a piece of crap bow and I would love to go down this rabbit hole and help him find a better bow that doesn't cost the earth. No point in forking out for a better violin only to have his crap bow take away the joy. 

Thanks in advance.

  

[Bill Yacey]

A good bow is irrelevant to age. There are old bows that are good, and there are crappy old bows too. Likewise with new bows.

[Mat Roop]

I do violin repairs and had the pleasure of working on a local violin belonging to a serious player who also composed music.

His bow ( don't recall the name) was a type with synthetic hair that is guaranteed not to require rehair. I had suggested he try a different  bow but he was adamant that that was the best bow ever and he had no interest in another.

Well, a year later I had occasion to work on his violin again. when he picked up his violin I asked if he would do me a favour and evaluate a Tourte copy bow that I had restored and rehaired (price tag $1000) with top grade Siberian horse hair, and thought was quite good.... was it really worth $1000?? Was it really better than the average bow of $1-200? I told him there was no rush to return it... just whenever convenient.

A month later he called saying I would not be getting the bow back. He could not believe the difference it made.

I find the same with most things including tools of the trade....not necessarily the price tag but rather the quality.

[matesic]

I've always been a bow sceptic but prepared to face the probability that the deficiency could all be in me. But then again..?  The German bow I chose quite carefully in the 1990's was recently valued at about £1K (auction estimate). I was perfectly happy with it until I splashed out £150 for a Sartory copy from Yitamusic. So I still find it hard to comprehend how an intangible "quality" finds its way into a stick of wood and makes your playing louder, faster, better. Mr Spock would surely be on my side.

[reg]

Go try out many bows

Its the only way!

[Jonathan B]

I thought it was widely accepted that getting a better bow was a good way to upgrade a violin. But I have no idea whether the age of a bow has any relation to its quality, my guess there are good bows and less good bows made now and much the same spread in the past. Although the worst bows from years ago are likely to have already been repurposed as tomato sticks.

When we were all stuck in our households due to Covid, my daughter played her violin quite a lot and I said we should explore updating her bow. I phoned the local violin shop owner, who agreed to meet in an acceptable outside space to hand over a collection of bows to try - six as I recall, all by contemporary makers (he doesn't hold stocks of old bows in the way he does violins). My daughter spent some time with each over a fortnight or so, scratching her head over their different qualities, and eventually asked me to help with a blind (to me) trial. She played the same pieces, chosen to test both lyrical and fast technical playing, with all the bows plus her own in random order; I sat at the other end of the room writing notes on what I perceived as their relative qualities, and learned which was which at the end. What surprised me is that I ranked them almost identically to the order of their price, I had assumed instrument pricing was more about reputation and hype. She was left trying to decide between the two most expensive (but not expensive by the standard of some of the dealers here) of which one felt best in her hands for playability while the other she was able to get a more thrilling tone from; that was resolved by a phone call to her teacher who advised that the tonal benefit she could get in other ways and she should choose the best playing bow (and indeed, some experimenting with different strings under the new bow gave her the best of both worlds).

Sorry, long story but the bottom line is that a better bow made a significant improvement, and the same money expended on upgrading the violin would likely only have made a marginal gain.

[GeorgeH]

11 hours ago, matesic said:

So I still find it hard to comprehend how an intangible "quality" finds its way into a stick of wood and makes your playing louder, faster, better.

The hair of the bow vibrates with the string. These vibrations are transferred to the stick. The qualities of the stick can determine the synergistic vibrational interactions with the string. In simple terms, at the same bow pressure and speed, a weak stick might dampen the string vibrations and a stiff stick might stifle the string vibrations. The stick, the hair, and the rosin all matter.

[martin swan]

38 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

In simple terms, at the same bow pressure and speed, a weak stick might dampen the string vibrations and a stiff stick might stifle the string vibrations.

In general terms I would say that a weaker stick will give a better sound, but you have to sacrifice some of that in order for the bow to be usable ...

The alchemy comes in the balancing of these two seemingly irreconcilable priorities.

[nathan slobodkin]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

In general terms I would say that a weaker stick will give a better sound, but you have to sacrifice some of that in order for the bow to be usable ...

The alchemy comes in the balancing of these two seemingly irreconcilable priorities.

Good bows are never weaker they are just more flexible

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Good bows are never weaker they are just more flexible

"Supple" is a word that comes in handy ... 

[LCF]

3 hours ago, martin swan said:

"Supple" is a word that comes in handy ... 

There are many parallels between violin bow making and archery bow making including careful tapering of the limbs so 'limber' is a useful word for this concept: just the right amount and shape of deflection.