David Burgess Posted June 23 Report Share Posted June 23 22 minutes ago, ViolinAnanda said: Wouldn't amount of grain lines determine stiffness though? No, although some general correlations do exist, in some circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolinAnanda Posted June 23 Author Report Share Posted June 23 46 minutes ago, David Burgess said: No, although some general correlations do exist, in some circumstances. When I checked fiddlershop.com . Their cheaper regular soundpost have 3-6 grains and the more expensive select have 7-10 grains so I concluded that with more grains comes greater quality and stiffness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wood Butcher Posted June 23 Report Share Posted June 23 25 minutes ago, ViolinAnanda said: When I checked fiddlershop.com . Their cheaper regular soundpost have 3-6 grains and the more expensive select have 7-10 grains so I concluded that with more grains comes greater quality and stiffness I wouldn't consider that conclusive in any way. They are making a visual distinction, in order to charge more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted June 23 Report Share Posted June 23 4 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said: I wouldn't consider that conclusive in any way. They are making a visual distinction, in order to charge more. Exactly, like with bridge mfgrs. Everyone (especially retailers) wants an easy way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolinAnanda Posted June 23 Author Report Share Posted June 23 15 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said: I wouldn't consider that conclusive in any way. They are making a visual distinction, in order to charge more. 10 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said: Exactly, like with bridge mfgrs. Everyone (especially retailers) wants an easy way out. So how can one measure stiffness and quality if the grain doesnt determine it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted June 23 Report Share Posted June 23 Just now, ViolinAnanda said: So how can one measure stiffness and quality if the grain doesnt determine it? I only have great spruce, so any post I make from it is of good quality. It's easier to measure larger pieces, but you can measure the density and then measure the speed of sound. Those two together give you an idea of the stiffness. This is how bow makers (in the form of Lucchi numbers) assess the stiffness of pernambuco. It can also be done by deflection, but probably not gonna be easy to do with a stick of post material. Do you have good spruce for making fiddles? Cut off a piece and make a post from it, it'll be good. One last time and I'll leave it alone: if your fit isn't flawless, you're wasting your time worrying about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew tkinson Posted June 23 Report Share Posted June 23 This is not really directly related to this topic so please forgive or ignore me. I wonder if a spruce tree growing in an exposed position, buffeted by winds, will produce stiffer timber than a spruce tree planted near by, at the same time, but in the comparatively sheltered position in the middle of a small wood, thus protected from much of the buffeting of storms by the 'support' of the surrounding trees. The reason I wondered this is that my brother and I attended a tree planting session many years ago and we were told that care had to be taken when supporting young freshly transplanted trees with stakes as they can become too dependent on the stakes for stiffness and their developing trunks are at risk of ending up a bit floppy and not be able to support the tree properly when the stake is eventually removed. A while later my brother noticed some medium sized, young, perhaps whitebeam?, trees on public land which had been supported by stout stakes for a few years and the strong, eye offending, rubbery straps fixing the trunks to the stakes were digging into and constraining the growing trees. Being a good citizen my brother decided to 'help' the poor trees by freeing them from their bonds. Shortly after, the trees had flopped over, their branches nearly touching the grass and they remained at this peculiar angle until they were chopped down years later. It would seem that their young trunks were too flexible to support the weight of their crowns once the support from the stakes was gone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted June 24 Report Share Posted June 24 6 hours ago, ViolinAnanda said: So how can one measure stiffness and quality if the grain doesnt determine it? It doesn't matter. Even crappy spruce will function fine, although maybe the cutting properties would matter to the luthier fitting it. But if you MUST know the properties of the wood, density is easy with a scale, calipers, and a little math. Speed of sound by the longitudinal resonance method can actually work with a long piece of uniform stock, and undoubtedly you could find a bending frequency formula and do a similar calculation. But all of that is pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted June 24 Report Share Posted June 24 Amen to that. Hopefully you're better at leading horses to water than I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguntde Posted June 26 Report Share Posted June 26 On 6/23/2024 at 11:57 PM, ViolinAnanda said: When I checked fiddlershop.com . Their cheaper regular soundpost have 3-6 grains and the more expensive select have 7-10 grains so I concluded that with more grains comes greater quality and stiffness You can by the wood from any hardware store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted June 26 Report Share Posted June 26 4 minutes ago, uguntde said: You can by the wood from any hardware store. My hardware stores don't sell spruce, but if yours do that's cool. Granted, a very nicely fit post in the right spot, of the right length, made of pine or fir would perform admirably. Morel fit a pencil in a nice fiddle as a prank once and the client was thrilled (though he didn't know it was a pencil) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted June 26 Report Share Posted June 26 30 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said: Morel fit a pencil in a nice fiddle as a prank once and the client was thrilled Given one has strong enough suggestion powers and the right reputation you probably could fit a post made of soap to thrill the client. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted June 26 Report Share Posted June 26 On 6/23/2024 at 4:57 PM, ViolinAnanda said: so I concluded that with more grains comes greater quality and stiffness My soundposts go to 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted June 26 Report Share Posted June 26 Out of curiosity, I checked my pile of inexpensive post stock, and found a range of 5 - 14, mostly around 7 or 8. It will all work the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 6 hours ago, Michael Darnton said: My soundposts go to 11. Hey that's my line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Norfleet Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 On 6/23/2024 at 1:29 PM, JacksonMaberry said: However, if you aren't already fitting posts with total perfection, and don't have a solid working concept of how changes to position and tension affect performance, don't worry about any other parameter. I’m curious about this “solid working concept”? After doing this work for many years, I’m not sure that having one is useful beyond making sure that it fits well enough and isn’t so long that it causes damage, or so short that it will easily fall over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 14 minutes ago, Mark Norfleet said: I’m curious about this “solid working concept”? After doing this work for many years, I’m not sure that having one is useful beyond making sure that it fits well enough and isn’t so long that it causes damage, or so short that it will easily fall over. That's about the long and short of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Norfleet Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 On 6/20/2024 at 6:56 PM, ViolinAnanda said: Is it my technic or is it soundpost that is not high quality? As this thread has devolved into a discussion of fine points which there isn’t a lot value in considering until one has the basics sorted out… It is your technique and may also be the result of your knife not being as sharp as it could be. I’ll second watching the video of Davide Sora fitting a post. A huge amount can be learned from watching someone who knows what they’re doing, and who has done it many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 I would think a busy restorer would have much more experience fitting soundposts, than a maker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Norfleet Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 4 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: I would think a busy restorer would have much more experience fitting soundposts, than a maker If you know of a video which shows greater skill and is more instructive on how to fit a sound post, please post a link to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoGo Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 Maker worth his salt should know how to fit soundpost perfectly. Perhaps some restorers may have more experience in adjustments of sound via soundpost but the fitting is basic skill just like joining plates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 On 6/23/2024 at 6:40 PM, ViolinAnanda said: So how can one measure stiffness and quality if the grain doesnt determine it? When I have wanted to know the stiffness of a piece of wood, or the stiffness of an assembly made from or incorporating wood, the best method I have found has been to actually measure the stiffness. So far, this seems to have produced more useful outcomes than my Ouija board, my crystal ball, or counting grain lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Norfleet Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 When was the last time you had your Ouija board calibrated? That could be the root of your inconclusive results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 37 minutes ago, David Burgess said: When I have wanted to know the stiffness of a piece of wood, or the stiffness of an assembly made from or incorporating wood, the best method I have found has been to actually measure the stiffness. For getting down to the fundamental properties of the wood, I find that resonant frequencies are the simplest path, if the dimensions are uniform. Assemblies are too complex for that. Again, none of this matters for a soundpost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted June 27 Report Share Posted June 27 6 hours ago, Mark Norfleet said: As this thread has devolved into a discussion of fine points which there isn’t a lot value in considering until one has the basics sorted out… It is your technique and may also be the result of your knife not being as sharp as it could be. I’ll second watching the video of Davide Sora fitting a post. A huge amount can be learned from watching someone who knows what they’re doing, and who has done it many times. I hope he listens to you, at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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