AaronS76 Posted June 19 Report Share Posted June 19 Another violin that my friend is looking at. It is being sold a French probably JTL. I am waiting on more photos but from the photos I have seen it does have some characteristics that I have learned from the forum. Looking at the JTL catalogues, they had a Mansuy model however I can only see it being sold in 'brun'. This violin definitely seems to have a reddish tinge to it. All other JTL labels I have seen have a logo on them. This one doesn't however I guess maybe it did. There also seem to be other Mirecourt makers that had a Mansuy model in their catalogue. Anyway, my question is whether anyone has seen this label before? And if they have, can they attribute it to a maker? It is a fair drive to go and look at so I am trying to dig up as much info as possible to decide whether we make the drive. Many thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtone Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 I have seen the label on a JTL instrument,unfortunately I haven't got a pic but I only remember the brown coloured one similar to Barnabetti.Could have been altered? got any other pics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronS76 Posted June 20 Author Report Share Posted June 20 This photo just arrived. If I have learnt from this forum correctly then this is not a French violin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtone Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 Yes you may be correct but it is pretty hard to tell from 2 pics. If anything it looks a bit too good for a cheaper model from JTL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronS76 Posted June 20 Author Report Share Posted June 20 More photos. Corners. Side of scroll. And back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtone Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 Any of the end pin? Someone else with more experience than me will catch something with those pics. Still I'm thinking Mirecourt but I can't say for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronS76 Posted June 20 Author Report Share Posted June 20 None of endpin but was told that it has a join there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 Mansuy was one of the brand names of cheaply manufactured violins of J. Thibouville -Lamy. As far as you have provided pictures of you friends violin, it looks like a cheaper French manufacture Generic brands (luthiers-mirecourt.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronS76 Posted June 20 Author Report Share Posted June 20 Thanks Jacob. So a cheaper model from one of the makers that used the Mansuy brand name. Interesting that the scroll has the delta. I either misinterpret the delta or it is not writ in stone that French violins don't have one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted June 20 Report Share Posted June 20 4 hours ago, AaronS76 said: I either misinterpret the delta or it is not writ in stone that French violins don't have one? That's nowhere written. All kind of origins have it. The only thing that it is telling is the makers (or specialist workers) didn't care much if it was there or wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronS76 Posted June 20 Author Report Share Posted June 20 Thanks. I continue to learn. So the delta will be there on dutzendarbeit because they were quickly made. But will also be on instruments made in other regions where the violin was made quickly or with relatively little care. I took it that French made instruments were made with more care than dutzendarbeit so would not have the delta but this is clearly not the case and other aspects need to be considered. Purfling. Corner blocks. Rib joints. Interestingly, the Laberte violin I recently purchased to play and work on over time to learn, that has the "A la ville de Crémone" label and sounds quite nice compared to my German made instrument, seems to lack "sharpness" in the scroll features and doesn't have a delta. To my untrained eye there are many cheaper instruments that have "cleaner" or prettier carvings of the scroll. No doubt people on here that distinguish violin origin so readily have handled many thousands of instruments however from an outsider it is quite an impressive skill/area of expertise to have developed. Appreciate the assistance of people who comment on here and are willing to share their knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Although the body of the violin looks typical Mirecourt work I can’t see the scroll as Mirecourt - the slightly rounded eye and the heavy wiped chamfers don’t look French to me … Worth checking under UV if the varnish matches, and whether there’s new varnish around the neck root. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetler Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 I believe I remember somebody on this forum saying that the French factories sometimes imported scrolls or necks from Schönbach. Could that be an explanation in this case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 I think it’s a bit odd to see (once again) a sort of Salamitaktik. As far as I’m aware we didn’t see a single photo showing the front or back nor sides completely , so it is impossible to tell if all of the details are from the same violin at all, or if the very suspicious looking label is part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Often the case with violins that “a friend is looking at” … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 7 minutes ago, martin swan said: Often the case with violins that “a friend is looking at” … Looking at the trees I can’t see the forest, as my friend is saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 We can be relatively sure it’s the same piano in all the photos … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 So if it is necessary to carry the piano to a different place for each photo, it would explain the timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCF Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 1 hour ago, Blank face said: So if it is necessary to carry the piano to a different place for each photo, it would explain the timeline. Could be two or more pianos the same, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronS76 Posted June 22 Author Report Share Posted June 22 This is the ad. The other photos were taken upon request. It is 5 hours drive for my friend. https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/candelo/other-musical-instruments/antique-french-violin-with-stunning-rare-ornate-bow/1325042614 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted June 22 Report Share Posted June 22 6 hours ago, AaronS76 said: This is the ad. The other photos were taken upon request. It is 5 hours drive for my friend. https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/candelo/other-musical-instruments/antique-french-violin-with-stunning-rare-ornate-bow/1325042614 At least the photos from the add show that it has a bad saddle/bassbar crack at the lower side. Though I'm seeing Martin's point about the round eye and also rounded (swiped) chamfers I could accept the scroll as an odd Mirecourt work, possibly made from a bought in Schönbach blank. I would be much more concerned about the crack, which could cause a lot of additional repair costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguntde Posted June 28 Report Share Posted June 28 On 6/21/2024 at 10:49 AM, martin swan said: Although the body of the violin looks typical Mirecourt work I can’t see the scroll as Mirecourt - the slightly rounded eye and the heavy wiped chamfers don’t look French to me … Worth checking under UV if the varnish matches, and whether there’s new varnish around the neck root. Eactly the sae varnish on the scroll which has also aged the same way as on te body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted June 28 Report Share Posted June 28 3 hours ago, uguntde said: Eactly the sae varnish on the scroll which has also aged the same way as on te body. You've checked under UV light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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