Modern Cello Impending Neck Reset/Other Issues

[MB Cello]

First I want to preface this post by saying I am a working professional cellist playing in a midsize professional orchestra and I am happy with the sound of my instrument. I have no intention of selling it, but I have a serious conundrum which involves my relationship with the maker of the instrument.

I took possession of this cello which I commissioned in 2020 from a popular modern maker of cellos. When I picked up the cello in late 2021, the sound was excellent and the cello at first look seemed well set up. However, there were a couple of odd things I noticed within the first few days/weeks.

-The endpin supplied was 8mm and didn't fit in the cone which was 10mm (quickly remedied by communicating with the maker)

-The action was very low on the A-string side and the stamp on the bridge with the makers name was pretty off center. Kind of weird, but again, the sound was to my liking and I let it go

-The tuning pegs didn't match. There was one peg with a mother of pearl inlay and the others just of plain ebony. Just an aesthetic thing, but still rather annoying

-There was a two inch crack in the ribs that was repaired, but which I was not told about ahead of time. I discovered it weeks later. I did talk to the maker about this and my luthier assured me the repair is very solid, but I didn't like that the brand new instrument I purchased for 40k came with a crack in it. It is particularly obvious under the stage lights. 

-The scroll was/is not in line with the rest of the cello. If you look down the fingerboard the scroll is pointing a bit more toward the C string.

-The back seam is not lined up with the button

-Endpin cone was carved to fit the hole and didn't really fit well

-The neck was already wedged when I received it, which leads me to my next issue......

The projection of this cello is low. by about 5mm. I know that over time necks move and it's not uncommon to need to do a neck reset on a cello. I contacted the maker and they provided me with the specs that they shoot for with neck projection. Based on the measurements provided and the original bridge, the cello was never at the correct projection. It has always been about 5-7mm low. In fact the neck has not moved more than .5mm, seemingly, which is amazing. Maybe there's some other way that the bridge and the neck could have fallen? The top is stable according to my luthier, so that seems unlikely. Now, since the neck was already wedged once it cannot have a NY reset done and so I'm looking at a rather expensive neck reset only two and a half years after taking possession of the cello.

On top of this, the local luthier I am working with on this says the neck is not only twisted, but canted slightly to the C-string side. They are unsure about the stability of the neck wood, which means that I might be looking at a new neck for this cello. They want to remove the fingerboard and see what the neck does. I have been telling myself that the setting of the neck was done intentionally to allow for the extra tension of the A-string to pull the neck in line and straighten out the scroll. This has in fact happened very slightly. I don't know if this is something makers do, but based on the list above, it seems like the intentionality of everything is always a question for me.

Based on the lack of attention to detail that I have listed above, a neck reset is not something I want the maker to do. I don't expect they have any interest in this anyway as I have emailed them about it and not heard back. As I said, I have no intention of trying to sell this cello or give it back to the maker, but I'm feeling like I did not get what I paid for in the craftsmanship department and that is frustrating.

Is it possible that the maker had an apprentice finish this instrument and just didn't bother to check the work? I don't want to name the maker, but they are in their later years and quite experienced at making cellos. I don't know why this cello sounds so good since it seems to be kind of haphazardly constructed. I have put a lot of money into new pegs/bridge/post/tailpiece/endpin rebushing and new cone and was fine to do that since those are either aesthetic issues or just not worth trying to get the maker to do. (they live several states away) Hearing that the neck was never in the right place and knowing that it was wedged when I got it has made me quite frustrated and annoyed, but I love my cello and I don't want to hurt my relationship with my instrument by damaging my relationship with the maker.

What should I expect from the maker in this situation? 

Please feel free to comment on anything that I may be missing or that I need to consider. I'm looking for a makers perspective on how to proceed

[Dwight Brown]

It almost sounds like you may need more than a reset. Maybe even a new neck.  You probably need a restorer to look at it?  I know some makers are putting carbon fiber rods in the necks of 'cellos and even violas to enhance long term stability.  I am certainly unqualified to offer a real opinion but if you could give a rough geographic location perhaps someone could point you to a second or third opinion.  I can certainly understand your frustration with not getting what you thought you had paid for.

DLB

[MB Cello]

My luthier is an excellent restorer who does work for some major shops in the Midwest. In that sense I believe I am in good hands. 

[duane88]

Too many variables to even start. Without knowing who made the cello, it is difficult to know many things. Not all 40k celli are created equally,

[MB Cello]

20 hours ago, duane88 said:

Too many variables to even start. Without knowing who made the cello, it is difficult to know many things. Not all 40k celli are created equally,

I'm not comfortable naming the maker. And what things would knowing the maker tell you?

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, MB Cello said:

I'm not comfortable naming the maker. And what things would knowing the maker tell you?

Within the luthier trade, reputations can differ a quite a bit from those outside the trade. For one within the trade, a name might tell a lot.

Personally, I would expect much better from a 40K cello than what you have described.
On the other hand, if the lower-than-standard neck projection isn't causing tonal problems or playing problems (such as insufficient C-bout bow clearance), I'd probably leave it alone for now. "Standard" specifications are not necessarily inviolable laws.

[MB Cello]

12 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Within the luthier trade, reputations can differ a quite a bit from those outside the trade. For one within the trade, a name might tell a lot.

Personally, I would expect much better from a 40K cello than what you have described.
On the other hand, if the lower-than-standard neck projection isn't causing tonal problems or playing problems (such as insufficient C-bout bow clearance), I'd probably leave it alone for now. "Standard" specifications are not necessarily inviolable laws.

Thanks David, waiting to reset the neck would seem to be an okay option. I would certainly like to see what this cello can do at the makers/my luthiers recommended projection, but assuming the neck is sound, it can probably wait. 

Based on my experience with many instruments by this maker, conversations with my luthier, several instrument dealers, and a relationship with this luthier that started over 20 years ago, I thought I would be in better hands. 

I am curious to know their reputation within the luthier community, but I’m not sure how I could do that without naming names
 

 

[reg]

Tell us your location?

[MB Cello]

This is turning into a detective case. I live near Chicago. That’s about as specific as I can be. 

9 hours ago, reg said:

Tell us your location?

 

[Christopher Jacoby]

The neck being slightly canted toward the bass or C side is something done purposefully by a lot of makers. Ease of playing difficult passages. The rest sounds like you need a luthier to fix it up. Instruments are like this, as anyone who's bought an auction violin knows. You get the potential of the instrument, and then take it to someone who really knows set-up to help that potential be realized... 

[MB Cello]

11 minutes ago, Christopher Jacoby said:

The neck being slightly canted toward the bass or C side is something done purposefully by a lot of makers. Ease of playing difficult passages. The rest sounds like you need a luthier to fix it up. Instruments are like this, as anyone who's bought an auction violin knows. You get the potential of the instrument, and then take it to someone who really knows set-up to help that potential be realized... 

do you feel that buying for potential is also true for brand new instruments? I have heard many shop luthiers talk about how makers are often not the best at setup. I think in this case there’s more going on than just poor setup. My gripe is with the neck angle never having been at the preferred angle. The fact that it is already wedged means I’m on the hook for an expensive repair 2.5 years into ownership. Should I be responsible for this or should I expect some help from the maker? 

 I will say that the sound of this cello is very special and the way the top and back are arched and the varnish are things of great beauty. Every time I look at my cello I am struck by the way it looks. The aesthetic things I listed in the original post have either been taken care of already or are pretty much overshadowed by the cello’s generally presence.
 

as far as sound goes, the cello has a beautiful tone and projects really well such that I never have to fight with my pianist, even on a nine-foot Steinway. The sound also opens up beautifully over distance. When I have colleagues play this cello, they love it and I love listening to the way the sound blooms over distance. It actually sounds bigger 20 ft away than it does 5 ft away. Quite a strange phenomenon that I knew existed,but hadn’t really witnessed before. 
 

does anyone have any thoughts on how a neck reset might affect the sound? How would a new neck differ from just a neck reset? 

 

 

 

[Christopher Jacoby]

If there was an agreement for warrantied work on the cello, you can defer to that, or you can (kindly) ask the maker and see what response you get.

Frankly, if all that you say is true about the sound, why mess with the neck and projection angle?? "ideal" geometry is about getting close to desirable sound on a given instrument. If you're already there...

[jacobsaunders]

I would be very reticent “correcting” an instrument from a living maker, I would try my best to defer you to the maker. Just imagine I would undertake wide ranging “improvements” on a Burgess cello. He would spend years taking the piss

[David Burgess]

34 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I would be very reticent “correcting” an instrument from a living maker, I would try my best to defer you to the maker. Just imagine I would undertake wide ranging “improvements” on a Burgess cello. He would spend years taking the piss

Or, I might kiss you. Americans are quite unpredictable, you know.

[MB Cello]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

I would be very reticent “correcting” an instrument from a living maker, I would try my best to defer you to the maker. Just imagine I would undertake wide ranging “improvements” on a Burgess cello. He would spend years taking the piss

That's fair. I suppose the complication here is that I'm hearing one thing from the maker and seeing another on the cello. I assume that David's cellos are finished with the intended measurements. This one wasn't delivered with a bridge height at 90+mm as the maker later specified when I asked about projection. It arrived with the bridge at 85mm and has stayed there(good for it that it hasn't moved, but still). Weird that the neck was wedged after it was set up, but not wedged enough to reach the 90mm bridge height. Perhaps it moved so much after the original set that it couldn't be wedged to the right position? I would expect in that case that a reset be done before delivery. Am I out of line? 

[Wood Butcher]

It seems surprising that any instrument from a maker should have these kinds of problems, regardless of the price. By problems, I would point to the rib crack, mismatched pegs, wrong size spike, neck wedge. How can you tell the cone is poorly fitted?

Depending on the model, arching etc, it may work better at a lower projection, but we do not have enough info either way. Just assuming something is wrong, because it doesn't meet your theoretical ideal on a ruler, could lead to false conclusions.

The obvious thing, is to read the paperwork supplied with the cello, particularly the guarantee. What does that specify?
Did you purchase the cello directly from the maker, or through a third party?

 

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Or, I might kiss you. Americans are quite unpredictable, you know.

Oh God! i definately won't touch one then, promise

33 minutes ago, MB Cello said:

That's fair. I suppose the complication here is that I'm hearing one thing from the maker and seeing another on the cello. I assume that David's cellos are finished with the intended measurements. This one wasn't delivered with a bridge height at 90+mm as the maker later specified when I asked about projection. It arrived with the bridge at 85mm and has stayed there(good for it that it hasn't moved, but still). Weird that the neck was wedged after it was set up, but not wedged enough to reach the 90mm bridge height. Perhaps it moved so much after the original set that it couldn't be wedged to the right position? I would expect in that case that a reset be done before delivery. Am I out of line? 

Not out of line, just if you came here asking those questions, I wouldn't know why it's like that. The maker might have his reasons though

[MB Cello]

1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

It seems surprising that any instrument from a maker should have these kinds of problems, regardless of the price. By problems, I would point to the rib crack, mismatched pegs, wrong size spike, neck wedge. How can you tell the cone is poorly fitted?

Depending on the model, arching etc, it may work better at a lower projection, but we do not have enough info either way. Just assuming something is wrong, because it doesn't meet your theoretical ideal on a ruler, could lead to false conclusions.

The obvious thing, is to read the paperwork supplied with the cello, particularly the guarantee. What does that specify?
Did you purchase the cello directly from the maker, or through a third party?

 

I had the endpin replaced because it wasn't fitting snugly. Material was carved off of the cone in order to make it fit into a smaller hole. Really confusing. I had to have the hole rebushed to have a new endpin installed. 

With respect to the projection. I wasn't assuming it was wrong, nor was my luthier. I personally have no ideal projection. My luthier felt it might be a bit low at 85mm and asked me to get the preferred spec from the maker. The number I was given by the maker was 90mm. It is a Guad model cello if that makes any difference. The arching is fairly broad. In any case the maker should know what their ideal projection would be. 

I bought the cello directly from the maker as a commission based on my experience playing this model many years prior. I had been thinking about the sound for years. I didn't receive any written guarantee for the cello, just a certificate with some photos. Based on the information I had at the time and my trust in this maker, I didn't think it was necessary to have a guarantee. They gave me their word that if I wasn't satisfied with the cello in the first year they would make me another. Of course in hindsight, that may have been a mistake. Perhaps I should have returned the cello based on my displeasure with the faults, but I figured they were mostly aesthetic. It wasn't until very recently that I discovered the suspiciousness of the neck and that the endpin was so weirdly fit. These felt like much more structural and costly issues.

Yeah, I need to have a discussion with the maker if I can reach them 

[Christopher Jacoby]

again. if it's 85 mm and sounds fantastic, why subscribe to numbers that are higher? don't address problems that don't exist. setup is about getting the potential of the instrument, not checking boxes off in a merit book.

[Altgeiger]

If the instrument plays well and sounds good, don't let a restorer convince you it should be changed unless they explain why the instrument will damage itself unless you get the work done. I don't hear anything that says the instrument has problems other than being less nice work than you hoped.

[Davide Sora]

@MB Cello

I agree with the previous posts.

However, since the issue of the discrepancy in measurements has worried you, I think it is fair to point this out to the luthier, not to obtain an immediate modification (since you are satisfied with how good it sounds as it is), but only in case the situation gets worse over time and may require neck restoration, which may not happen at all. If I were the luthier I would be happy to do everything I could to keep my instruments working, rather than let others get their hands on them. I don't give a written guarantee either, but simply because for me it is understood that this guarantee will be in force as long as I am alive and able to work. Verbal commitments between gentlemen never break down. I'm not saying that all luthiers are gentlemen, so you have to be a bit careful when ordering an instrument, but many are.

[MB Cello]

Thanks for your perspective everyone. I've reached out to the maker again and will hopefully come to a solution if in fact this situation requires a solution