Wings Posted May 19, 2024 Report Posted May 19, 2024 (edited) Hi, I saw a beautiful violin recently, it is a copy of Leandro Bisiach without a makers”s name. The whole length of the violin is 585 mm and the back 358 mm. The width of the upper bouts: 165 mm; middle bouts: 109 mm; lower bouts: 205 mm. Can anyone help to identify where and when it was made please? Thanks a lot. Edited May 19, 2024 by Wings
martin swan Posted May 19, 2024 Report Posted May 19, 2024 Looks like something you might see on Ebay Germany ...
chrissweden Posted May 19, 2024 Report Posted May 19, 2024 The seller is a known fraud and has been selling these junk violins on all the platforms. Always with fake labels. Sometimes the work is a bit better because he or his friends made some adjustments to the scroll. Stay away.
Gtone Posted May 19, 2024 Report Posted May 19, 2024 3 hours ago, chrissweden said: The seller is a known fraud and has been selling these junk violins on all the platforms. Always with fake labels. Sometimes the work is a bit better because he or his friends made some adjustments to the scroll. Stay away. Good Advice,as usual.I can't stand these fraudsters. Wings,welcome and save your pennies a go to a trusted dealer.
Wings Posted May 19, 2024 Author Report Posted May 19, 2024 4 hours ago, martin swan said: Looks like something you might see on Ebay Germany ... Indeed it was. Lol. But still curious to know what it is
Guido Posted May 20, 2024 Report Posted May 20, 2024 They go as far as putting fake strings on, too. These are fake Obligatos.
Dennis J Posted May 20, 2024 Report Posted May 20, 2024 The correct spelling of the musical term is obbligato, lovely word. I'm not saying that the name of the real strings are spelt this way, I don't know.
Wings Posted May 20, 2024 Author Report Posted May 20, 2024 On 5/19/2024 at 9:29 PM, Gtone said: Good Advice,as usual.I can't stand these fraudsters. Wings,welcome and save your pennies a go to a trusted dealer. Thanks, I didn’t buy, just saw it was bid and sold for £600. I have zero experience with violin products. Just feel it was well built and looks nice. So was wondering is it a good one or just rubbish as you guys already said.
Gtone Posted May 21, 2024 Report Posted May 21, 2024 1 hour ago, Wings said: Thanks, I didn’t buy, just saw it was bid and sold for £600. I have zero experience with violin products. Just feel it was well built and looks nice. So was wondering is it a good one or just rubbish as you guys already said. It's not so much that they're rubbish,they could sound alright but it is a lucky dip.Those sellers use a business model that I feeI is shady. I would never steer a student toward buying from them. There are and have been bargains on Ebay and elsewhere ,estate sales, auction houses but you have to do research and ask questions.
HoGo Posted May 21, 2024 Report Posted May 21, 2024 I wonder what is so bad about this violin other than the misrepresentation? From the pics it looks like decently built new chinese violin antiqued to look old with added fahrkarte (possibly right from the chinese maker). For 600EUR or so I could hardly buy total wreck of an schoenbach box locally... Better preserved german violins around here seem to be nearly always grossly overpriced by music shop owners. With almost no expert violin shops in the country parents often buy the overpriced crap (thinking they've got real deal as written on its fahrkarte) or the luckier buy cheap chinese.
Gtone Posted May 21, 2024 Report Posted May 21, 2024 1 hour ago, HoGo said: I wonder what is so bad about this violin other than the misrepresentation? From the pics it looks like decently built new chinese violin antiqued to look old with added fahrkarte (possibly right from the chinese maker). For 600EUR or so I could hardly buy total wreck of an schoenbach box locally... Better preserved german violins around here seem to be nearly always grossly overpriced by music shop owners. With almost no expert violin shops in the country parents often buy the overpriced crap (thinking they've got real deal as written on its fahrkarte) or the luckier buy cheap chinese. Like I said above it may be an adequate sounding violin but the misrepresentation is my problem with and with it happening in any industry. Shady business.look at his/her advert Would you put your name to it HoGo? Would you recommend it someone,not knowing exactly what your getting?
HoGo Posted May 21, 2024 Report Posted May 21, 2024 I've never ordered from ebay and don't plan to order anytime soon but I've seen (too) many similar offers on ebay. If I were to order something like this I would probably order directly from chinese workshop. Now I wonder why Ebay allows such offers of "fake" goods. My friend once bought (expensive) mandolin from ebay that had failed neck joint while it was described as excellent condition and after claiming it was not as described he got his money back from ebay and seller was out of luck (and money). If you order this violin and claim it is fake won't you get your money back?
Gtone Posted May 21, 2024 Report Posted May 21, 2024 18 minutes ago, HoGo said: I've never ordered from ebay and don't plan to order anytime soon but I've seen (too) many similar offers on ebay. If I were to order something like this I would probably order directly from chinese workshop. Now I wonder why Ebay allows such offers of "fake" goods. My friend once bought (expensive) mandolin from ebay that had failed neck joint while it was described as excellent condition and after claiming it was not as described he got his money back from ebay and seller was out of luck (and money). If you order this violin and claim it is fake won't you get your money back? I'm only guessing that you would get your money back. The difference is I know you know a thing or two about violins and their manufacture,from your posts, but these ebay merchants must fool a lot of innocent buyers(OP) with such adverts and before they would know it is just a "antique made yesterday" it would fall outside the time limit of claim. You do make a good point about it being an attractive violin though. I was just simply want to talk of my dislike of this kind of seller/person.
GeorgeH Posted May 21, 2024 Report Posted May 21, 2024 Because the seller used the term "labeled" instead of "by," the violin cannot be returned for being an unauthentic Bisiach. This practice, however, is misleading to novice buyers. The terms "old" and "vintage" may or may not be true, and it may be difficult to return a violin based on these terms without being able to prove that it is actually a new instrument. Seller may claim 10 years old is "old" and "vintage." However, the country of manufacture is listed as Italy, which is obviously false so the buyer might be able to return it on that false claim. The chances are that if the buyer tried to return it, the seller would offer a generous partial refund in exchange for positive or no feedback. It is part of their cost of doing business and why they have 1842 feedbacks with 100% positive ratings. In this instance the violin sold for $711.68. Bidding started at $1 in a private listing. It may be an acceptable or better violin in comparison to others at that price point. I also don't think that a person buying a violin for this price thinks they are buying a genuine Bisiach regardless of the listing description. Maybe they just like the looks of the violin. The pictures are nice. Having said all that, if the seller sold it unlabeled with an honest description of the time and place of manufacture, it would probably sold for significantly less.
Wings Posted May 21, 2024 Author Report Posted May 21, 2024 Yes the description is very dodgy. But I dont think there are many people (if any) would expect to buy a real Bisiach for $700. So my original question really was what kind of fake Bisiach it is rather than if it is a Bisiach. such as is it a factory product from China? Or hand made? How much is it really worth? like
martin swan Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 13 hours ago, Wings said: Yes the description is very dodgy. But I dont think there are many people (if any) would expect to buy a real Bisiach for $700. So my original question really was what kind of fake Bisiach it is rather than if it is a Bisiach. It’s not a copy of a Bisiach or a fake - rather it’s a generic trade violin into which the seller has slapped a faked up label.
HoGo Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 I'd say it's most likely china. No EU or US maker would make profit on violin sold for this money. If the seller repeatedly sells similar violins he has a steady source with price well below the $700. I just looked at local online sales site of instruments and found two similar sellers. They have 20+ violins just like the OP violin with various old italian labels priced from 490 to 790 EUR, They are all made with very nice wood and antiqued so various level and show no sign of use so even the description says old instrument they are virtually new, but whenever the instrument is real old german or french manufacture instrument or at least looks like it the price starts at 1500 up to 5000. Some of their fiddles have labels of 19th/20th century czech or german masters and they are offered for 3-9000 EUR. I'm no expert but most of those are clearly still just relabelled Markies (sometimes even not of high quality). Seems like they buy instruments from china or ebay and after some setup they sell them for profit. Those older markies are extremely overpriced but fokks here have virtually no chance knowing what they buy with very few luthiers in the country and of those very few that can identify the instruments. School teachers are typically clueless about valuation of those and just read the label and try out if it is playable (I showed my usual to three teachers some time ago for quick evaluation).
reg Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 On 5/20/2024 at 4:56 AM, Guido said: These are fake Obligatos. Guido Interesting comment - how can you tell that they are fake?
HoGo Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 The wrapping on the tailpiece end mimics obligato red/black but the pegbox ends don't use the correct color for real obligatos. (you can find the colors on producer site or on various string identification charts)
LCF Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 2 hours ago, HoGo said: The wrapping on the tailpiece end mimics obligato red/black but the pegbox ends don't use the correct color for real obligatos. (you can find the colors on producer site or on various string identification charts) I've seen 'Alice' strings (fr China) with that combination. So they're probably genuine Alices
martin swan Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 If you go to Reghin you will be offered carrier bags of reject (or stolen) violins from the Hora factory for 150 euros a bag. Plenty of dirty antiquers in Budapest who will varnish and set up for another 100 per violin. So the profit margin could be pretty good …
jacobsaunders Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 1 hour ago, martin swan said: If you go to Reghin you will be offered carrier bags of reject (or stolen) violins from the Hora factory for 150 euros a bag. Plenty of dirty antiquers in Budapest who will varnish and set up for another 100 per violin. So the profit margin could be pretty good … you don't need to tell us all of you're trade secrets
Sammyo Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 Haha. I watched this seller for a while in various user names. The bidding across his accounts, by his other accounts, seems to be pretty obvious when you pay attention.
GeorgeH Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 9 hours ago, LCF said: So they're probably genuine Alices Go ask Alice. 1 hour ago, Sammyo said: Haha. I watched this seller for a while in various user names. The bidding across his accounts, by his other accounts, seems to be pretty obvious when you pay attention. Yes, there is no reason for this seller to have private bidding unless they are shill bidding. Not saying they are, but...
martin swan Posted May 22, 2024 Report Posted May 22, 2024 4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: you don't need to tell us all of you're trade secrets Jacob, the bag of violins is yours for 200 ...! To be serious, it's 15 years since I was in Reghin but I don't suppose anything has changed. Indeed in that time I would think Romania's economy has weakened while China's has strengthened.
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