The advertizing for the upcoming Cremona violin making competition, ouch!

[Dr. Mark]

I gave my fiddle to the postman

He put it in his sack

A few weeks later

I got my fiddle back.  They wrote upon it:

Chorus:

This thing sounds horrid

You've got no ear

The color's atrocious

Maybe next year.

 

We had a quarrel

About the entry fee

I keep sending my fiddles in

But they all come back to me.

I put my fiddle in the mailbox

Marked 'Special D'

A few weeks later

It came right back to me.  They wrote upon it:

(chorus)

This time I'm gonna take it myself

And play them a Sarabande

If the judges get up and throw me out

Then I'll understand.

(chorus

Return to sender

Return to sender (fade)

[LCF]

3 hours ago, Dwight Brown said:

This has left me All Shook Up……

DLB

I'm still looking for a piece that came from my violin bridge 'cause I don't have my wooden heart. 

[David Burgess]

15 hours ago, LCF said:

I'm still looking for a piece that came from my violin bridge 'cause I don't have my wooden heart. 

There may be an option to "kickstart" your heart.

 

[Whittler]

New member- greetings.

Only spruce or (surprising to me) cedar permitted for the belly, evidently. I'm about to start on my mold form for a first-go 'cello, and will likely use redwood, as I have some high quality salvaged wood. Though a finished instrument might not be quite ready for this year's competition :^ ), this would be a disqualifier, for seemingly arbitrary reasons. No Cremonese fiddles were bellied with cedar, were they? If not, then as a concession to only a certain set of modern luthiers who have adopted a particular unorthodox material rather than another, only their and the organizers' (apparently somewhat limited) imagination is deemed worthy of consideration / inclusion. Not to gripe too much, but a better, fairer method of compensation for the winning instruments could likely be devised, imo.

[Whittler]

Oh, missed that the competition is only for pros- ok, definitely will have to push for next year then (more small laughter). Would cedar refer to linings or something other than the belly? They're typically willow, or sometimes other wood, iirc. I will probably utilize holly for purflings (it's invasive here in the Pacific NW U.S.)- another disqualifier.   

[Davide Sora]

1 hour ago, Whittler said:

New member- greetings.

Only spruce or (surprising to me) cedar permitted for the belly, evidently. I'm about to start on my mold form for a first-go 'cello, and will likely use redwood, as I have some high quality salvaged wood. Though a finished instrument might not be quite ready for this year's competition :^ ), this would be a disqualifier, for seemingly arbitrary reasons. No Cremonese fiddles were bellied with cedar, were they? If not, then as a concession to only a certain set of modern luthiers who have adopted a particular unorthodox material rather than another, only their and the organizers' (apparently somewhat limited) imagination is deemed worthy of consideration / inclusion. Not to gripe too much, but a better, fairer method of compensation for the winning instruments could likely be devised, imo.

 

18 minutes ago, Whittler said:

Oh, missed that the competition is only for pros- ok, definitely will have to push for next year then (more small laughter). Would cedar refer to linings or something other than the belly? They're typically willow, or sometimes other wood, iirc. I will probably utilize holly for purflings (it's invasive here in the Pacific NW U.S.)- another disqualifier.   

Yes, it's for professionals only.

The Cremona competition is based on rather conservative and traditional principles linked to the ancient Cremonese tradition. Right or wrong, that's how it is, and as in all competitions if you don't agree with the rules just don't participate and choose other competitions such as the VSA, or others, there are so many (too many to me) and the choice is wide. Regarding wood, I don't think that once finished and varnished, redwood, fir, or other conifers are easily identifiable as different from spruce, so the risk of being eliminated would be extremely low, they don't do specific analyses, only visual inspection is used. The indication of the woods is generic and does not give specific references to the individual parts.

[Whittler]

Your response is greatly appreciated, Davide; it's a real privilege. Actually, my interest in the Cremona competition is only academic, as my goal is to make a personal instrument to play. Could anyone tell me how cedar is used in viol family instrument construction, and which species/s? There are very many woods called "cedar": Thuja is an arborvitae, "Spanish" is neither a true cedar nor from Spain, to my understanding, and Port Orford Cedar (native to a relatively limited area of the Pacific NW U.S.) is actually Lawson's cypress, etc. 

 Regards

[HoGo]

2 hours ago, Whittler said:

Your response is greatly appreciated, Davide; it's a real privilege. Actually, my interest in the Cremona competition is only academic, as my goal is to make a personal instrument to play. Could anyone tell me how cedar is used in viol family instrument construction, and which species/s? There are very many woods called "cedar": Thuja is an arborvitae, "Spanish" is neither a true cedar nor from Spain, to my understanding, and Port Orford Cedar (native to a relatively limited area of the Pacific NW U.S.) is actually Lawson's cypress, etc. 

 Regards

The true cedar is genus Cedrus all others like "western red cedar" or "pencil cedar" or "Port Orford cedar" or "spanish cedar" are just common names in US english that coincidentally use term "cedar". Whether the organisers accept all of these or is it just mistake in their translation to english is question to them. Many of these woods are pretty hard to tell apart. Under varnish they would have to use microscope for analysis to tell spruce apart from some of these.

[Davide Sora]

5 hours ago, Whittler said:

Your response is greatly appreciated, Davide; it's a real privilege. Actually, my interest in the Cremona competition is only academic, as my goal is to make a personal instrument to play. Could anyone tell me how cedar is used in viol family instrument construction, and which species/s? There are very many woods called "cedar": Thuja is an arborvitae, "Spanish" is neither a true cedar nor from Spain, to my understanding, and Port Orford Cedar (native to a relatively limited area of the Pacific NW U.S.) is actually Lawson's cypress, etc. 

 Regards

If you are on your first violin, I think the type of wood would be the least problem to risk not being admitted to competitions. Especially in Cremona where the first selection is made exclusively by the luthiers judging only the workmanship, if you don't pass this selection your violin won't even be played by the musicians.

As for cedar, it is used for guitars, not violins, but I'm sure that if you search hard you can find some luthiers who used it in times, although I don't think the ancient Cremonese. I had used it many years ago on two or three violins to make blocks and linings.

[Whittler]

Thanks for the comments. It's certainly understandable that the organizers of the "World Cup of viol lutherie", held at it's world-renowned historical epicenter of Cremona, Italia, would want traditional form instruments. It is their celebrated centuries-old heritage, these traditions are emulated around the globe for good reasons. Truly, I was mainly wondering (and to some extent still am) why they would choose to accept cedar specifically, as I hadn't noticed any mention of it's traditional use for these instruments, and tradition is the evident focus of the event and pertinent regulations.  

[Whittler]

Interesting you should post that video, David. Cir. 1990 I was a 20-something-yr-old working for a florist in Sherman Oaks, CA, which you would know is in the San Fernando Valley of Los Angeles. I was young and athletic, so usually assigned to lugging heavy stuff around in the delivery van, setting up weddings, events, etc., and then packing everything up later. One typically bright and clear afternoon, I happened to working relief retail register in the shop, when a flashy white Mercedes convertible pulled up in front and parked on the main blvd. A guy all decked-out in rock 'n' roll regalia- boots wrapped in bandanas and chains, bleach-blonde palm tree hair-do, etc., got out and entered the shop, accompanied by a very attractive woman who was similarly attired, with identical hair. They selected one of the more elaborate floral arrangements, in a nice ceramic vase, and brought it to the register to purchase. Ran the card, and it was Vince Neil- Motley Crue's lead singer, with wife. He said the flowers were for Nikki (bassist and main songwriter) for the occasion of the birth of his first child- a baby girl, as I recall. The transaction went through alright, but the insert-type machine clamped-down on the credit card somehow. I couldn't dislodge the thing, and rather sheepishly had to summon the manager to sort it out. `:^ °

[Whittler]

Correction: 1991, a baby boy- Gunner. (Don't mean to create clutter- no edit function).

[Whittler]

The stunned silence is perfectly understandable. It seems possible that some people could be thinking (to themselves), "Dude, you met THE Vince Neil, lead singer for Motley Crue- no way, really??? We're not worthy! We're not worthy! :^ )

 Actually, the main thing about this thread that I found interesting was the comments about the Cremona competition by someone who has actually been awarded 1st-place for an instrument there, and judged the thing. Nobody asked for my opinion, obviously, but fwiw, after all the blather about the importance of world heritage, and master luthiers past and present, they then cheap out the first-place winners at below fair market value for their world-class creations? Uh, really? Also, (and some might think that I should have been a lawyer, based upon a natural affinity for the precise use of language), Art. 5 of the rules states: "The jury will not admit instruments to the competition that: ...2) have been even partially machine-made..." Seems to me this would disqualify every applicant (not to mention every classic Cremonese maker), according to my admittedly rudimentary understanding of the typical construction methodology. That does it, I'm withdrawing from the next contest in protest, so those who have not already won may now breathe easy (for now). Another smiley face. 

[not telling]

On 6/8/2024 at 12:25 AM, Whittler said:

...Art. 5 of the rules states: "The jury will not admit instruments to the competition that: ...2) have been even partially machine-made..." Seems to me this would disqualify every applicant (not to mention every classic Cremonese maker)...

Apparently I am more out of the loop than I thought. Did someone find evidence of varnish spraying, power tool usage and the markings of CNC production on some golden period Stradivaris?  Dang, that means a few million attic Strads just drastically increased in value.  This will be very disruptive for the industry.  I know I've been gone a long time but I figured even I'd hear about something like that. 

 

[LCF]

46 minutes ago, not telling said:

Apparently I am more out of the loop than I thought. Did someone find evidence of varnish spraying, power tool usage and the markings of CNC production on some golden period Stradivaris?  Dang, that means a few million attic Strads just drastically increased in value.  This will be very disruptive for the industry.  I know I've been gone a long time but I figured even I'd hear about something like that. 

 

That rule will exclude violins made from trees felled by chainsaws and carted away on trucks. 

 

What's a machine anyway?

[Whittler]

Google: machine definition: from Oxford languages, noun:

An apparatus using or applying mechanical power and having several parts, each with a definite function and together performing a particular task.

Good point about the mechanical logging methods- I was thinking of the hand-cranked drill, certainly a machine tool. Iirc, Antonio's relic tools at the museum there in Cremona include some screw clamps- also, by definition, machines. Speaking of which, the tuning devices on any double bass submitted would need to be hand-cut in their entirety, and even the plates hammer-forged, rather than machine-rolled. 

 

[LCF]

2 hours ago, Whittler said:

Google: machine definition: from Oxford languages, noun:

An apparatus using or applying mechanical power and having several parts, each with a definite function and together performing a particular task.

So a violin is also a machine and the competition might disappear up it's own rulebook with a big wooshing sound.

 

2 hours ago, Whittler said:

Iirc, Antonio's relic tools at the museum there in Cremona include some screw clamps- also, by definition, machines.

And a typewriter too ( see other thread) but it's manual, not a selectric. "Il Segretario di Stradivari".

 

[Dr. Mark]

On 6/8/2024 at 1:25 AM, Whittler said:

The stunned silence is perfectly understandable. It seems possible that some people could be thinking (to themselves), "Dude, you met THE Vince Neil, lead singer for Motley Crue- no way, really??? We're not worthy! We're not worthy! :^ )

At first I was thinking 'Wow - he met THE Mr. David Burgess in his prime', so I was kind of disappointed that it was some Hollywood imitation.

[David Burgess]

Well, I did almost get run over by a very impatient Jack Klugman once, across the street from where "The Odd Couple" was being filmed. Does that count for anything?

[Dr. Mark]

Guess not.  I'm not contributing much here so I'm going to stop now.

 

[LCF]

15 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Well, I did almost get run over by a very impatient Jack Klugman once, across the street from where "The Odd Couple" was being filmed. Does that count for anything?

Well JK has a Bacon number of 2 so if he did run you over you might get a Bacon number of 3 for being in the same scene together. Otherwise nope. 

[Whittler]

"So a violin is also a machine..."

True, sir- and a wonderful and fascinating one, at that. Not utilized as a tool to create others of its kind, though, so technically compliant with the published rules as written, imo. Upon further reflection, the classic era luthiers / Cremonese masters would have received their timbers ready-cut to whatever degree (certainly to the point where it's quality could be ascertained), so a solid argument could be made that the making only begins after the luthier receives the rough billets. This would appear convincingly, again in my personal opinion, fwiw, to excuse initial mechanical preparation of the woods. It therefor seems possible that the Cremona competition might survive European Court of Justice scrutiny in this regard, and be permitted to continue. However, the strings will clearly have to go- excepting genuinely hand- (or tooth-drawn) ones, of course. Absolutely no cheating with pliars).  :^ )

Imho, almost getting run over by Jack Klugman definite

 

 

 

[Whittler]

Android device obviously not interfacing optimally. Since there's unfortunately no edit function, when convenient, could mods maybe remove one of the doubled youtube vids, pls?

I typed that imho almost getting run over by Jack Klugman definitely counts for something- an indelible if anecdotal experience from one's unique store of personal memories, and in this instance a nearly too-epic brush with fame. There can be a lot of impatience in city living. Also wrote that the good Dr. might have meant THE Mr. Maestro David Burgess in his prime, and that I've said it's a privilege before, and meant it. Now I don't know what Klugman's Bacon rating would have been, as I'm totally unfamiliar with that term, but what would his BLTpm rating - or for that matter, dpm (dogs-per-minute) rating have looked like, as compared with, let's say the as-yet-peerless Joey Chestnut's? Granted, Joey might not fare so well as an actor on Broadway or land a popular and long-running TV sit-com lead role, but could Jack have done what he does, and would he have even wanted to? People should be themselves. As has been aptly said, everyone else is already taken. 

 

[Whittler]

Ok, enough fun exploiting the somewhat overbroad iteration of the Cremona rules ad absurdum. They  want straight-up classic model instruments and limited divergence from traditional practices for legitimate reasons, so back to brief but serious reflection on an important subject, if I've not overstayed my welcome:

With re. to Cremona first-place winners and the, (in my view, from a staunchly pro-labor or actual producer of goods perspective), inadequate and blatantly exploitive compensation scheme, could anyone offer any ideas or suggestions as to how this might be improved? Since any fool can complain and most fools do, beyond identifying a perceived problem, what are the possibilities for proactive progress to the mutual benefit of all concerned? I might be able to think of at least one theoretical possibility, but would be interested to know others' opinions, with the aim being an honest effort toward a more just exchange, maybe. Also, as I'm new here (and posting under a pseudonym, no less), just for the record, I do realize that professional gluttony does not exactly equate one-for-one with world-class stringed instrument making or other high accomplishments in The Arts. To tell the truth, I'm not even sure it should be allowed, because people get hurt or kill themselves trying to mimic these people, not realizing that their abilities are freakishly rare (largely genetic) and also require considerable training. Nobody asked, but to me there is a certain perverse, if grotesque, beauty or at least ironic satisfaction in the fact that a guy can earn as much as a good heart surgeon jamming 76 hotdogs, with buns, down his gullet in 10 minutes flat. I'm thinking of writing-in Joey Chestnut for President come November. No joke.

 

 

[LCF]

On 6/13/2024 at 10:48 AM, Whittler said:

... Now I don't know what Klugman's Bacon rating would have been, as I'm totally unfamiliar with that term,

Irrelevantly but fwiw, a 'Bacon' number measures the interconnectedness of actors who have worked together using Kevin Bacon as a reference point. If worked in same project, value =1. If worked with someone who has a value =1, then value =2.  Because of the continuous web of humanity this means actors from long ago such as Buster Keaton also have a  calculable BN.  It's a similar arrangement to being only a few handshakes away from Eisenhower or Montgomery.

I think it would be good to have an alternative index, of violin connectedness, to Kreisler or Heifetz or (some arbitrary prominent violinist).