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Sharpening tiny round chisel


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2 hours ago, FiddleMkr said:

I made the jig to get a flat bottom edge to heel. When rounded it climbs out of the wood. The shape of the tool matters.

That is exactly what carving chisels are designed to do. Properly used they scoop out the wood. If the main bevel is not rounded it will tend to dig in, not desirable when arching plates.

When grinding a main bevel it is best to remove metal from behind the cutting edge making sure the heel of the bevel is low enough to allow for some doming of the overall bevel. When that bevel is close to the cutting edge, about a millimetre, you can concentrate on sharpening with a finer stone. So if the edge is straight before you start the process it will end up smooth and even after sharpening.

Fine slipstones to remove the burr are just about essential. But ideally you need a slightly hollow surface behind the cutting edge to get best results using one.  I find a buffing wheel will remove burrs on chisels and plane blades, but is less efficient on gouges.

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55 minutes ago, Dennis J said:

That is exactly what carving chisels are designed to do. Properly used they scoop out the wood. If the main bevel is not rounded it will tend to dig in, not desirable when arching plates.

Come to think of it I did put two flats on the back (because I ran into that problem).  I also moved some of the bevel to the inside, at least on one gouge. But that was a little too much trouble to do on the others. 

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1 hour ago, Dennis J said:

I find a buffing wheel will remove burrs on chisels and plane blades, but is less efficient on gouges.

I do the opposite.  I’m usually not wanting to round the edges of plane irons or chisels, but do a little on some of my gouges.

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I've had trouble removing the burr on some gouges like the Pfeil ones with a buff because the steel seems to be very flexible.

But I don't seem to have trouble with plane irons and chisels removing a burr with a buff. But I like using the slipstone on gouges without using the buff, at least on the incannel surface. But in both cases a buff will sharpen or refresh an edge.

I only use a loose cotton buffing wheel charged with rouge or chrome oxide. I don't think that it rounds over an edge to any significant degree.

There are a lot of variables involved when sharpening so I'm not surprised that some have trouble with it, especially when doing gouges. So I don't know if it is a lot of practice, but I'm sure that anyone should be able to master it without using too many jigs. I only use a bridge-type honing guide for plane iron sharpening which is a very simple process compared to dealing with gouges. Using a pivot point on the handle works well, at least in the final stages of sharpening. But is not really viable when trying to produce a complete or new primary bevel. Doing so is a very slow process on gouges because the grinding surface is only in contact with a small spot of the bevel, so it is not something that can be rushed.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Mark Norfleet said:

I do the opposite.  I’m usually not wanting to round the edges of plane irons or chisels, but do a little on some of my gouges.

I use a buff for some difficult edges but usually a hard stitched one and take care that the tangent to the wheel at the contact is as much in the plane of the edge as possible rather than being at an angle to it  so as to minimise the rounding potential. 

 

Something I used to do but stopped doing because its a bit too scary when it catches is to put an mdf disk with a true flat edge in place of a wheel on a bench grinder, load it with buffing soap and use it as if grinding with a very fine wheel.  I do not recommend! Maybe it would be ok on a slow grinder??? 

 

Edited by LCF
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3 hours ago, LCF said:

Something I used to do but stopped doing because its a bit too scary when it catches is to put an mdf disk with a true flat edge in place of a wheel on a bench grinder, load it with buffing soap and use it as if grinding with a very fine wheel.  I do not recommend! Maybe it would be ok on a slow grinder??? 

Or spin the wheel in the opposite direction.  Not readily achieved on most grinders though.

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Unless one got a giant wheel on the grinder (something like 1 m diameter) I am not a fan of using it for the final grind. I use muline for stuff that really needs a new edge, but not for sharpening. Wheetstones work so beautifully in comparison.

Even budget ones like this (Arashiyama I think) get more out on most things for me. I think it was just 100 bucks or something like this. A good grinding wheel is so much more expensive...

PXL_20240506_170957305.jpg

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5 hours ago, LCF said:

Something I used to do but stopped doing because its a bit too scary when it catches is to put an mdf disk with a true flat edge in place of a wheel on a bench grinder, load it with buffing soap and use it as if grinding with a very fine wheel.  I do not recommend! Maybe it would be ok on a slow grinder??? 

Some things about fiddle making (maybe even most things?) do benefit from a little care and caution.

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2 hours ago, VicM said:

One can swap two wires, I think.

To change direction the start and run windings can have their relative polarity swapped in single phase induction motors if the terminals are accessible BUT on most grinders and buffs the threads on the shaft are left handed on one side and right handed on the other to oppose the direction of rotation. If you spin them backwards the wheels fly off. :wacko:

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3 hours ago, LCF said:

If you spin them backwards the wheels fly off.

Unless you have side guards on the wheels…, and then it just gets weird.
 

Switching two wires will work if the motor is DC or three phase AC, but most of us won’t have grinders like that, except for Jackson or myself.

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51 minutes ago, Mark Norfleet said:

Unless you have side guards on the wheels…, and then it just gets weird.
 

 

Not something I want to try with my 12" grinder anyway!

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21 hours ago, LCF said:

Something I used to do but stopped doing because its a bit too scary when it catches is to put an mdf disk with a true flat edge in place of a wheel on a bench grinder, load it with buffing soap and use it as if grinding with a very fine wheel.  I do not recommend! Maybe it would be ok on a slow grinder??? 

There are laminated paper buffing/sharpening wheels which are quite hard, and made to be spun at normal grinder speeds.

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34 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

There are laminated paper buffing/sharpening wheels which are quite hard, and made to be spun at normal grinder speeds.

That sounds promising!

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39 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

There are laminated paper buffing/sharpening wheels which are quite hard, and made to be spun at normal grinder speeds.

They're everywhere. I need to get out more.

 

https://www.artisansupplies.com.au/product/razor-sharp-gritted-and-slotted-paper-wheel-10-accessories/

They're used in drag mode the same way as buffing wheels.  This is the relevant caveat:
"As with buffing knife blades, if the edge is turned into the wheel as described as incorrect above, the blade can be caught and thrown at speed most certainly destroying the wheel, the knife and potentially causing injury and death. Do not do it. Ever."

 

 

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12 hours ago, Mark Norfleet said:

Switching two wires will work if the motor is DC or three phase AC, but most of us won’t have grinders like that, except for Jackson or myself.

The only dc motors I've seen on grinders are old 32volt ones for farm wind generator power systems.  I often see nice 3 phase units at auctions but I don't have 3 phase although I use some VFDs for that. And it only just occured to me that a grinder with variable speed would be a nice thing to have. Doh.

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23 minutes ago, LCF said:

The only dc motors I've seen on grinders are old 32volt ones for farm wind generator power systems.  I often see nice 3 phase units at auctions but I don't have 3 phase although I use some VFDs for that. And it only just occured to me that a grinder with variable speed would be a nice thing to have. Doh.

@JacksonMaberry has done that, but I think he concluded that when using CBN wheels a lower speed was enough and there was no need for it to be variable.  I have a small three phase grinder for making form tools that I just might put a VFD on.

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58 minutes ago, LCF said:

"As with buffing knife blades, if the edge is turned into the wheel as described as incorrect above, the blade can be caught and thrown at speed most certainly destroying the wheel, the knife and potentially causing injury and death. Do not do it. Ever."

Maybe it would be a good idea to paint little arrows. ;)

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13 hours ago, Mark Norfleet said:

Switching two wires will work if the motor is DC or three phase AC, but most of us won’t have grinders like that, except for Jackson or myself.

I have a 10" buffer where I reversed the rotation for better visibility while buffing.  The wheels have never flown off.  It's a normal cheapo shaded-pole AC motor, so switching wires won't work.  It has been many years, so I'm not certain, but I think I waa able to reverse the stator.  That would only work if the endcap bolt patterns are symmetric.  You could always just turn the whole thing around and get an on/off switch some place you can reach it, perhaps by reversing the base.

Something like this one:

61OOGgiEXzL._AC_SX679_.jpg

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In knife sharpening you always turn the blade into the wheel for best results, never the other way other than at the very first shaping grind. 

It requires to pay attention though and this is one reason, why i dislike small wheels for sharpening knives.

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On 5/6/2024 at 12:13 AM, Dennis J said:

I've had trouble removing the burr on some gouges like the Pfeil ones with a buff because the steel seems to be very flexible.

But I don't seem to have trouble with plane irons and chisels removing a burr with a buff. But I like using the slipstone on gouges without using the buff, at least on the incannel surface. But in both cases a buff will sharpen or refresh an edge.

I only use a loose cotton buffing wheel charged with rouge or chrome oxide. I don't think that it rounds over an edge to any significant degree.

There are a lot of variables involved when sharpening so I'm not surprised that some have trouble with it, especially when doing gouges. So I don't know if it is a lot of practice, but I'm sure that anyone should be able to master it without using too many jigs. I only use a bridge-type honing guide for plane iron sharpening which is a very simple process compared to dealing with gouges. Using a pivot point on the handle works well, at least in the final stages of sharpening. But is not really viable when trying to produce a complete or new primary bevel. Doing so is a very slow process on gouges because the grinding surface is only in contact with a small spot of the bevel, so it is not something that can be rushed.

 

 

What is your “bridge type honing guide”? mentioned above.

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1 hour ago, FiddleMkr said:

Using a pivot point on the handle works well, at least in the final stages of sharpening. But is not really viable when trying to produce a complete or new primary bevel.

Why is it not as viable for grinding, as it is for final honing?
While I don't use exactly the pivot pin method for grinding gouges, I use something very similar, and it seems to have served me well for many decades, crude as it is, made from parts I had around at the moment, including a cello endpin, an electric motor and gears from a retired milk dispensing machine, and a piece of discarded Formica-topped kitchen counter.

grinder reduced.jpg

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2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Why is it not as viable for grinding, as it is for final honing?
While I don't use exactly the pivot pin method for grinding gouges, I use something very similar, and it seems to have served me well for many decades, crude as it is, made from parts I had around at the moment, including a cello endpin, an electric motor and gears from a retired milk dispensing machine, and a piece of discarded Formica-topped kitchen counter.

grinder reduced.jpg

I have been assigned to a comment that wasn’t mine, but regardless I am glad that I got to see your setup. It looks to me like an easy way to put a hollow grind on the back side of a gouge, and the grind is parallel to the edge. Then you can sharpen the gouge freehand.  
      My setup, where I have a tool rest parallel to the stone, and I make 2 flat areas on the backside of the gouge, is my answer to not having a way to make a hollow grind parallel to the edge.   
    Thanks for sharing this. 

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To Fiddlemaker, I use my "bridge" honing guide to sharpen plane irons. Just a length of wood with a roundhead bolt at the end which can be screwed in or out for minor adjustments to the honing angle. I use it with the steel plates charged with diamond paste with kerosene as a lubricant. All you need is a flat surface. Honing guides with rollers instead of a bolt like mine were made in the past.

 

DSC_0006.JPG

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