What Wood is Best for Tailpiece

[NicholasP]

Hello. I’ve recently decided to start upgrading my violin and was informed by a luthier that one of the first things they’d recommend changing out to easily get one fine tuner on and improve the sound of the violin is the tailpiece.

The tailpiece has 4 finetuners, appears to be made of ebony, and uses a metal strip instead of an actual tailgut. They offered a Wittner tailpiece, but after reviewing differences from the Wittner tailpiece and wooden tailpieces online, I preferred the sound of the wooden ones. Which then brought me to my next question, what wood is best for violin tailpieces?

I can’t find many videos showing the differences between the most common tailpiece woods (Pernambuco, Ebony, Rosewood, and Boxwood) but heard that Boxwood and Pernambuco sound the best.

Which wood in your guys’ experience has the best sound? I know that string after length, tailgut length, weight, and quality of the wood can affect the results. But it seems that Pernambuco might be the hardest to get wrong with the best reward in sound.

[Andrew Victor]

The only tail;iece wood I have had some trouble with (soundwise) is pernambuco, although on one of my violins it made no difference.

If the fine tuners are important to you and you want to improve your sound, I recommend Bois d'Harmonie. For me, they kept the good sound of my former "bare/naked" tailpieces (just not the Pernambuco models _ BUT THEY ARE EXPENSIVE. They have very light weight carbon fiber tuners (built -in, but the tuners can be removed).

Also, your beidge looks bad, it needs lots of professional work, or professional replacement.

 

[NicholasP]

4 minutes ago, Andrew Victor said:

The only tail;iece wood I have had some trouble with (soundwise) is pernambuco, although on one of my violins it made no difference.

If the fine tuners are important to you and you want to improve your sound, I recommend Bois d'Harmonie. For me, they kept the good sound of my former "bare/naked" tailpieces (just not the Pernambuco models _ BUT THEY ARE EXPENSIVE. They have very light weight carbon fiber tuners (built -in, but the tuners can be removed).

Also, your beidge looks bad, it needs lots of professional work, or professional replacement.

 

Oh, that's interesting to hear. I'll keep that in mind. I did also look at Bois d'Harmonie, and they indeed are expensive. Some day if I have the money though I'd love to buy one. Also, what's wrong with the bridge? It was replaced and made into a new one when this consignment violin was brought in by the previous owner and it seemed fine to me. Maybe I'm wrong though, I would like to learn what's wrong though for future reference for whenever I get repairs or upgrade the bridge.

[baroquecello]

On violins, the difference that tail pieces make are not as drastical as on cellos. The biggest factor is weight near the bridge. Your fine tuners add a lot of weight. Just take them off and see if you like the improvement. If you do, that means it makes sense to experiment. Which tail piece from what materials will sound best on your violin can only be determined by trial. If you need fine tuners, ConCarbo tail pieces are likely the best way to go.

[iNeedAnswers]

Different violins sound best with different tailpieces. That being said, with same after length and the tailpiece not being super heavy, the difference is more in the area of fine tuning good violins, it really doesn't matter for more simple instruments, IMHO. 

Differences are mostly in speed of sound inside the material, I'd say. Weight can be adapted by carving and dampening inside the material is close enough. 

For the very high end Cremonesian violins there seems to be a tendency towards boxwood, but there are also others, like for example the Kreutzer Strad which seems to prefer ebony. 

Personally, I use a box wood tailpiece from Otto Tempel on my contemporary and Pernambuco from ErgoVio on my Italian, which as opposed to what Andrew experienced, works great on this violin.

 

Then again, we talk about nuances, don't expect huge changes. The huge changes will be achieved by dropping those fine tuners that shorten the after length amd using a tailpiece with built-in fine-tuners (or non at all, if you can manage that).

[mfailla]

and what about the tail cord?

when nylon is better than dyneema or steel?

It is not difficoult nor expensive to experiment around, but which differences one should look for between the different material?

 

 

[iNeedAnswers]

Ok, I just looked at the video. Forget about the wood, just replace it with either no fine-tuners a,d,g or one with built-in fine-tuners like the Wittners. Use a "normal" tail gut as well and don't let the tailpiece sit too far towards the top, it looks like it is now.

The bridge seems to be a not adjusted bridge blanket. Who ever fitted that, simply did not do the fitting part.

I advise going somewhere else, the next time.

[iNeedAnswers]

12 minutes ago, mfailla said:

and what about the tail cord?

when nylon is better than dyneema or steel?

It is not difficoult nor expensive to experiment around, but which differences one should look for between the different material?

 

 

These days it's mostly Kevlar or threaded Nylon. We just had a discussion here, about this topic. 

[NicholasP]

4 hours ago, iNeedAnswers said:

Ok, I just looked at the video. Forget about the wood, just replace it with either no fine-tuners a,d,g or one with built-in fine-tuners like the Wittners. Use a "normal" tail gut as well and don't let the tailpiece sit too far towards the top, it looks like it is now.

The bridge seems to be a not adjusted bridge blanket. Who ever fitted that, simply did not do the fitting part.

I advise going somewhere else, the next time.

Well, as is it sounds 10 fold better than my other violin that was same cost. I wouldn’t mind putting money in to make this one sound better and whatnot. Also, here’s pictures of that bridge close up. It’s concerning to hear that you think it’s a blank as this shop is up there in ratings and popularity here in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

What I look for in terms of a tailpiece (besides general quality) is string spacing at the fret, tail "gut" hole spacing, length (appropriate for the instrument) and weight.  Frankly I find that, with very few exceptions, wood type makes only minor differences and those differences seem very subjective (if it's "better or worse"). There are certainly several viable choices for the tail hangar (gut) ranging from Sacconi style, wire and "kevlar" and different luthiers tend to have favorites, but I find that that material choice makes far less difference on violin than they do for viola and cello.

Setup tends to work as a unit, so a decent bridge, well set post, and correct fingerboard surface will be as important as any fitting changes you decide on.

[NicholasP]

38 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

What I look for in terms of a tailpiece (besides general quality) is string spacing at the fret, tail "gut" hole spacing, length (appropriate for the instrument) and weight.  Frankly I find that, with very few exceptions, wood type makes only minor differences and those differences seem very subjective (if it's "better or worse"). There are certainly several viable choices for the tail hangar (gut) ranging from Sacconi style, wire and "kevlar" and different luthiers tend to have favorites, but I find that that material choice makes far less difference on violin than they do for viola and cello.

Setup tends to work as a unit, so a decent bridge, well set post, and correct fingerboard surface will be as important as any fitting changes you decide on.

Interesting. Thanks for the info!

[iNeedAnswers]

Ok, in these pictures it shows not to be a blank, just the top is a bit flatter than most others make it, which is not necessarily an issue. It looks well made, so I take back my recommendation to look for a different place.

[FiddleDoug]

I'll agree with others. You don't need to worry about which wood is "best". You current tailpiece is crippled by the heavy fine tuners, and the odd metal tailgut. You should either replace tailpiece with one with integrated fine tuners, and a conventional (nylon) tailgut, or modify your existing tailpiece by removing all oy the fine tuners, replacing the E with a hill style, and replacing the tailgut.

The plastic tubes on the strings should also go. I always put parchment on the bridge under the E string. The A string probably doesn't need it.

[NicholasP]

41 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

I'll agree with others. You don't need to worry about which wood is "best". You current tailpiece is crippled by the heavy fine tuners, and the odd metal tailgut. You should either replace tailpiece with one with integrated fine tuners, and a conventional (nylon) tailgut, or modify your existing tailpiece by removing all oy the fine tuners, replacing the E with a hill style, and replacing the tailgut.

The plastic tubes on the strings should also go. I always put parchment on the bridge under the E string. The A string probably doesn't need it.

Thank you very much for the advice. I do agree that my current tailpiece is crippled by the heavy fine tuners and the metal tail gut. A week ago I started getting a weird raspy sound that was originating from something on the tailpiece. But screwing in the finetuners much more than having them a decent amount out helped significantly and the other thing is there but it seems to be temperature dependent when I hear it. I'd press down on the metal tailgut strip though and it would cut away. So I do agree that I need to remove the weird metal tailgut and if I stay with this one I should remove the finetuners and replace the E with a Hill Fine tuner. I'm looking into some boxwood tailpieces right now from the local shops so just to avoid the issue with this current ebony tail piece I might just buy a new boxwood one. Not sure where to find tailpieces between the 30-100 USD range to try and get decent quality without breaking the bank but we'll see. Browsing online I see the lower end ones that are under $40 and then a huge jump to the $160 and up ones that are made by brands like Du Bois de'Harmonie.

Also, the plastic tubes are something I was debating whether they go or not. My prior violin before this one (Franz Werner Concert) which I got at "Southwest Strings" never had the tubes and for the E had this kind of rubbery looking thing that protected the bridge from the E string. I'm not sure what the tubes do but I'm not a huge fan of them so I'll look into removing them.

Thanks for all the advice and help.

[NicholasP]

1 hour ago, iNeedAnswers said:

Ok, in these pictures it shows not to be a blank, just the top is a bit flatter than most others make it, which is not necessarily an issue. It looks well made, so I take back my recommendation to look for a different place.

Ah ok, that's good to hear. Thanks.

[Michael Darnton]

A caution here that the highest number of 5* ratings on google goes to a couple of band instrument / rental places, and that bridge does NOT look at all like what I'd expect from the best shop in GR, which has relatively few ratings. That bridge is just barely OK for a cheap rental violin, and that's about all it is. 

I get a bit of a hint that you're trying to spend tens of dollars to solve tonal problems via home-made magic and that's not going to work. If there's anything to be done you need to go to a good shop, a real violin shop, and spend real money.

[NicholasP]

7 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

A caution here that the highest number of 5* ratings on google goes to a couple a couple of band instrument / rental places, and that bridge does NOT look at all like what I'd expect from the best shop in GR, which has relatively few ratings. That bridge is OK for a cheap rental violin, and that's about all it is. 

I get a bit of a hint that you're trying to spend tens of dollars to solve tonal problems and that's not going to work. If there's anything to be done you need to go to a good shop, a real violin shop, and spend real money.

I'm not necessarily trying to spend tens of dollars. It's just the option for tailpieces that seems most common in Grand Rapids unfortunately without having to go digging online. If there was a good brand that I knew I could trust that's pretty decent for a nice wooden tailpiece online I would. So I'm still looking, but right now it's not looking too hopeful besides for the Du Bois de'Harmonie tailpieces. This is a violin I love though that already has a great sound and that I expect I'll be putting at least a few hundred into over the next year or two, if not, probably 1000 or more depending on how good of a paycheck I get this year.

Also, I'm not quite sure of the ethics of saying where I bought this violin, but if it's ethically fine I wouldn't mind dropping which shop I bought this from.

[NicholasP]

Although. Now that I look closer, it seems like there's a thread that's a gem full of good looking shops for tailpieces. I'll link the thread below.

The main ones in the thread that catch my eye are the following:
https://bcbows.com/en/musical-instruments-accessories/accessories-for-violin/tailpiece/french-tailpiece-2-dettagli.html

https://www.violins.ca/category/fittings/tailpieces/jsb-tailpieces/

https://www.johnsonstring.com/cgi-bin/music/scripts/vvc-f.cgi?search=Violin-Accessories&accessorysubfilter=TP&mf=HARM&f=mf

If you guys have any favorites from this list please let me know. I'm also thinking of seeing how I'd go about upgrading the bridge and soundpost to be better. But first I'm more concerned about the tailpiece since I want to use the Thomastik Infeld's that I like once these Helicore strings wear out.

 

[David Burgess]

27 minutes ago, NicholasP said:

This is a violin I love though that already has a great sound

In that case, you might be better off not messing with it.

[NicholasP]

9 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

In that case, you might be better off not messing with it.

You're probably right. I have a tendency to start doing something to make it better and in the end somehow make it worse. Although I've never looked into upgrading a violin so it's all new to me so I don't know really where to stop, if ever. It's like Icarus. I fly and sometimes fly too close to the sun.

[Aston4]

The Wittner plastic tailpiece with 4 fine tuners integrated is fine.  

I am a sound snob, but for $18, it cannot be beat.  It will last forever.  It tends to be a little more dull in sound, with a few weird harmonic tendencies, but I'd bet in a blind test, you personally could not tell the difference in sound, but probably could tell the difference in weight.

Yes aluminum tailpiece is louder and brighter. Titanium is louder and brighter still.  I have had good luck with pernambuco on one fiddle and bad luck with another.  Ebony is the default because it almost always works fine.  Boxwood is an aesthetic choice in my opinion.

Tailgut... well see the other discussion we just had.  You will not be able to hear a difference, but people choose kevlar or titanium or other metal for other reasons, like durability or longevity or not needing to readjust after stretching.  Nylon works great, when it is the German Wittner nylon, and if you make it a mm or two short when installed, it will stretch out must right.

Another nice thing about the Wittner plastic is it isn't heavy. 

[NicholasP]

15 minutes ago, Aston4 said:

The Wittner plastic tailpiece with 4 fine tuners integrated is fine.  

I am a sound snob, but for $18, it cannot be beat.  It will last forever.  It tends to be a little more dull in sound, with a few weird harmonic tendencies, but I'd bet in a blind test, you personally could not tell the difference in sound, but probably could tell the difference in weight.

Yes aluminum tailpiece is louder and brighter. Titanium is louder and brighter still.  I have had good luck with pernambuco on one fiddle and bad luck with another.  Ebony is the default because it almost always works fine.  Boxwood is an aesthetic choice in my opinion.

Tailgut... well see the other discussion we just had.  You will not be able to hear a difference, but people choose kevlar or titanium or other metal for other reasons, like durability or longevity or not needing to readjust after stretching.  Nylon works great, when it is the German Wittner nylon, and if you make it a mm or two short when installed, it will stretch out must right.

Another nice thing about the Wittner plastic is it isn't heavy. 

$18 is quite affordable. I can try buying that and see how it sounds. Usually I’m not really biased when comparing violins or different sounds of violins, but what I could do is take two recordings, one with a wooden tailpiece and the other being the Wittner, and randomize the recordings. I do have experience with the Wittner with my first ever violin I got in Tucson, Arizona (A Hans Kroger) which used the Wittner. Nylon and Kevlar are the two I’ve been eyeing on using for the tailgut. Both look like good options.

[Aston4]

6 minutes ago, NicholasP said:

$18 is quite affordable. I can try buying that and see how it sounds. Usually I’m not really biased when comparing violins or different sounds of violins, but what I could do is take two recordings, one with a wooden tailpiece and the other being the Wittner, and randomize the recordings. I do have experience with the Wittner with my first ever violin I got in Tucson, Arizona (A Hans Kroger) which used the Wittner. Nylon and Kevlar are the two I’ve been eyeing on using for the tailgut. Both look like good options.

If you decide to go with something more expensive later on, having an old Wittner laying around as a spare is a Very Good Thing for tailpiece emergencies, which happen more often than one would think.

[NicholasP]

4 minutes ago, Aston4 said:

If you decide to go with something more expensive later on, having an old Wittner laying around as a spare is a Very Good Thing for tailpiece emergencies, which happen more often than one would think.

Oh. That's a really good point that I never thought about. Thanks for reminding me about that.

[Aston4]

15 hours ago, Andrew Victor said:

The only tail;iece wood I have had some trouble with (soundwise) is pernambuco, although on one of my violins it made no difference.

If the fine tuners are important to you and you want to improve your sound, I recommend Bois d'Harmonie. For me, they kept the good sound of my former "bare/naked" tailpieces (just not the Pernambuco models _ BUT THEY ARE EXPENSIVE. They have very light weight carbon fiber tuners (built -in, but the tuners can be removed).

Also, your beidge looks bad, it needs lots of professional work, or professional replacement.

 

The BdH fine tuners have French quality control (i.e, none).

I had to disassemble three of them and sand not only the plastic tuners, but the wood too, to make everything work right.  The Renault of tailpieces.  Should call it the tailpipe.