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Carbon Fiber Cello bridge


twcellist

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I don't have much experience with cf-instruments, but mezzoforte would probably have fitted a carbon bridge if it would work well on their cello, I guess. 
It also looks, like the feed were fitted pretty bad, in addition to the obvious warping your bridge experienced. 

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A Carbon bridge might be pretty harsh sounding. A really good wooden bridge fitted by a good luthier should last for a very long time. Just a thought. I have a feeling a good ‘cello bridge of any type isn’t cheap. What does the other Carbon instrument company use? Perhaps wooden bridge with carbon cloth laminated on the front and back. They make limbs for archery bows that way.

DLB

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CF does not make any sense at all at this kind of load. Basically, you could as well use a pure rosin bridge for that, the fibers dont help much. A rosin to hold this load without a complex structure (one could theoretically 3d print some meta-material like things), will probably be rather dampening actually. At least I would expect that. 

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I think Andreas Preuss posted a while ago about drilling a wooden bridge, and then inserting carbon fiber rods to keep it from bending. Maybe someone can link to that.

I haven't read any positive reports about all-carbon-fiber bridges.

My guess is that you have four fine-tuners on the tailpiece. With this setup, as the strings stretch, most of the slack is taken up at the tailpiece end of the string, resulting in the bridge being pulled  backwards and the bridge bending if the top of the bridge isn't repositioned regularly. With regular proper maintenance, an all-wooden bridge would probably work just fine for you.

 

 

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I suspect you would get less backwards bridge bending if you did most of your close tuning with the pegs rather than the fine tuners.

The ratio of forward to backward bridge bending might be the ratio of the string after length to the playing length =1/6

Somebody might be able to predict what intermediat note the string should be tensioned to with the pegs and rest of the final tuning done with the fine tuners such that no bridge bending would happen. 

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I tried out a prototype carbon fiber violin with a wooden bridge and an alternate carbon fiber bridge. With the wooden bridge it sounded awful, with the carbon fiber bridge, it sounded much more awful.

Not to mention the carbon fiber soundpost, which was ridiculously difficult to reset after it slipped...and it slipped very easily...

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38 minutes ago, iNeedAnswers said:

My experience with carbon anything on violins is similar so far, but the way it is utilized so far is also very primitive, so I am not calling it a dead end yet.

Sure. There are multiple thousands of years working with wood and dealing with its properties. In that context, carbon fiber is quite new.

Right now, I happen to favor wood with its thousands-of-year history, versus attempted carbon fiber imitations of wood.

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why don't you lay carbon fiber yourself on a wooden bridge?

carbon has excellent and unmatched elastic properties but wood may/is used to absorbing unwanted frequencies but It still have to transmit the wanted ones

a bit of epoxy and 200 g/sqm carbon cloth would do the job. even unidirectiional strands, even cheaper than cloth, may be interesting to lay down in comprehensible paths which cloth can't obiouvsly do

 

this is my first message here (hallo everybody ;-).

I am a absolute beginner in music, but have a decent experience in advanced (sandwiched vacuum or infused parts with exotic fibers) composites in marine applications

 

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28 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Sure. There are multiple thousands of years working with wood and dealing with its properties. In that context, carbon fiber is quite new.

Right now, I happen to favor wood with its thousands-of-year history, versus attempted carbon fiber imitations of wood.

Even in terms of what we know about this material today already, those violins are built primitively. 

Personally, I prefer wood in every way, even if it sounded the same. Looks and feel are just a different beast, I also prefer the process of how it gets formed. For me to switch to a fiber-resin based  it would need to be MUCH better than wood and yet I am waiting to find one that sounds as good as a good wooden instrument. Haptics alone..

On the other side, options are almost always a good thing to have and if I would play in a professional orchestra I would consider it again, because of easy basic playability (I am mostly missing color range with those instruments) and its sturdiness. 

I actually did buy a CF violin in the past for Bach Cantatas in winter (churches are very cold here), but sold it rather quickly because I just disliked its boringness of only one sound color. 

 

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It needs the hands of a luthier in any case and they will probably suggest what they are comfortable with. If this bridge gets bend back, it probably needs the feet fitted in addition as well, if there is no strange shadow in the image. It doesn't look like it fits.

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4 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I think Andreas Preuss posted a while ago about drilling a wooden bridge, and then inserting carbon fiber rods to keep it from bending. Maybe someone can link to that.

I haven't read any positive reports about all-carbon-fiber bridges.

My guess is that you have four fine-tuners on the tailpiece. With this setup, as the strings stretch, most of the slack is taken up at the tailpiece end of the string, resulting in the bridge being pulled  backwards and the bridge bending if the top of the bridge isn't repositioned regularly. With regular proper maintenance, an all-wooden bridge would probably work just fine for you.

 

 

I wrote an article for the Strad magazine 3 years (?) ago.

Basically I believe this is the answer to make a reliable and lasting bridge. Unfortunately the quality of maple wood for bridges went down and is presumably just another thing caused by climate warming. (Or not really the fault of bridge manufacturers)

Note: At Morels shop one of the guys got a bridge to be cut for a cello made by Antonio Stradivari. When we looked at the density of the year rings it was just amazing. We estimated something like 200 (!) years over the length of feet only.

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15 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Unfortunately the quality of maple wood for bridges went down and is presumably just another thing caused by climate warming. (Or not really the fault of bridge manufacturers)

Note: At Morels shop one of the guys got a bridge to be cut for a cello made by Antonio Stradivari. When we looked at the density of the year rings it was just amazing. We estimated something like 200 (!) years over the length of feet only.

If bridge blank manufacturers want wood with tighter grain, they can simply choose wood from higher up the mountain, or from an area with less sun exposure or water. However, I haven't found that there is a predictable relationship between the number of grains per cm, and strength or stiffness, so I don't pay much attention to this when choosing bridge blanks.

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20 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Right now, I happen to favor wood with its thousands-of-year history, versus attempted carbon fiber imitations of wood.

Assuming the sound of a wooden bridge is the standard to match, then you'd at least need to get the same stiffness and mass distribution with a CF bridge... not that simple given the vastly different density and modulus.  I don't know if damping properties are hugely important, but if so, that's another variable to deal with, if it's even possible.

The CF bridges I've seen haven't tried to do any of those things... just a bridge-like thing made of CF.

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I think you're asking the wrong question here. Every time I see this, and from what I can tell you are having the same problem, the bridge has been cut leaning forward a bit and the player has been pulling it back to the actual correct angle. The feet stay flat on the top, and then the bridge bends backwards to follow the top. The answer isn't to get a stiffer bridge; it's to get your current bridge properly refit so that it has the right lean. 

On wood cellos it's usual that a bridge cut to the correct angle will almost immediately lean forward because that's the way the top moves under string tension. So someone who knows what he's doing cuts the bridge leaning back a bit farther than he wants. Also, if you want to dig even deeper, the two feet do something different under string tension, so that can be compensated for in advance as well.

IF this is done well AND you maintain the angle yourself (which it looks like you are trying to do) the bridge won't warp.

Asking for a graphite bridge in this case is somewhat similar to saying "My friend keeps hitting me with a pipe; does anyone know anything softer that he can hit me with?" when the answer is "Get a better friend."

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5 hours ago, David Burgess said:

If bridge blank manufacturers want wood with tighter grain, they can simply choose wood from higher up the mountain, or from an area with less sun exposure or water. However, I haven't found that there is a predictable relationship between the number of grains per cm, and strength or stiffness, so I don't pay much attention to this when choosing bridge blanks.

I don’t think so. Very cheap bridges have ALWAYS very wide grain and there is a reason for it. 
 

Regarding the strength of a bridge not alone grain density but also direction of medullary rays are important. 

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