An interesting take on Beethoven's violin concerto

[Stephen Fine]

On 4/22/2024 at 7:27 PM, GoPractice said:

 

Beethoven as a keyboardist, like any great church organist, was likely asked to improvise or vamp. I am sure all keyboardists did at the time. A deaf Beethoven was less likely to offer certain feedback and assurances from his middle and later works, though his perceptions would have given him solid indicators during rehearsals; my feeling is that others likely shortchanged him with the thoughts that he had difficulty hearing. What a curse.

I am not a great student of history. In reading, I learn, but was not there. A hundred years after Beethoven's death I would be curious as to how the concertos sounded throughout Europe, the Americas, or Asia. But it might be understood that most artists had a degree of showmanship to travel a far.

When performers contractually allow for distribution of intellectual properties, especially to a well streamed channel, they might have put some thought behind it. I am still evaluating what parts were bold, what were waning, and trying to guess what the ensemble/ conductors/ producers thought. Was it elegant? was it refined? did it have to pound? was it Pirastro of Thomastik? These are mostly details trying to nail down items on a deck of a ship in the storm.

I do like robust attempts. There are phases in careers and this performance is not one of a youngster. Mullova is a gifted player with a patience and great thought. I have read some researched bios and interview and was even impressed when her Tchaikovsky/ Sibelius was released on Phillips decades ago. A bit wound tight, but that was the era. She had to follow Mutter and Chang. When teenagers have generally play the Beethoven, the notes loud and fast, then Ms Hahn surprised many of us, now decades later. 

Are you familiar with the Huberman recording of Beethoven?  One of my favorite early recordings.

On 4/23/2024 at 2:33 AM, matesic said:

Unfortunately we all tend to judge individuals on whatever limited evidence comes our way. This caused me to find more room in my mind, not about Brahms (he already has plenty) but about PKo.

It's a decade old so I wonder if she'd play it the same, completely unaffected way today? Is there something about Brahms's music that deters excessive interpretation in a way that Beethoven's doesn't? Most likely, I think some players (the most intelligent ones?) constantly have to find new ways to keep familiar works fresh in their own minds.

I think Beethoven is a much showier musical persona than Brahms, yes.  But, also, a concerto is a much showier musical event than a sonata.  I feel like in the concerto she demonstrates real sensitivity in the way she plays duos with the woodwind solos, but she also often feels wild and improvisatory in the way that I imagine Beethoven played himself.  By all accounts, hearing Beethoven improvise at the piano was an extraordinary experience.

Brahms was a perfectionist without Beethoven's overwhelming confidence.

 

On 4/23/2024 at 8:55 AM, VicM said:

Maybe you do not know but I have a high power research mathematician in the family. Neither Newton nor Leibniz "discovered" calculus. Rather, they formalized procedures known for a long time. The Greeks knew them. 

You are very close to understanding my point I think.

While they were geniuses both, it is more important that they were in the right place at the right time.

[Stephen Fine]

While we're having fun:

Here's Wolfsthal playing in 1925:

 

Some interesting moments of rubato here (less than 100 years from the death of Beethoven).

And I think most of us are familiar with this gem from 99 years after Beethoven.

 

Man... this is so nice.  In the old days, Toscha would mention some obscure recording and I'd have to hunt it down by mail order or at a library.  Nowadays I can just post a YouTube link to whatever the heck amazing Beethoven recording I want.  It's an embarrassment of riches.

OK, OK, only one more... from the man the myth* the legend*:

*literally... not that he's not one of the greatest to ever play, but he's just one among the greatest.  He was in the right place at the right time.

[GoPractice]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:02 AM, Stephen Fine said:

Are you familiar with the Huberman recording of Beethoven?  One of my favorite early recordings.

 ( ... )

Yes, but have not listened to it in years. A friend has a digital copy and we would listen to it. We had the same teacher at one point, I, a decade+ older while he was getting his bachelors degree. Our teacher's classmate, became a CM and assistantCM and Principal 2nd ( I think ) in different ensembles until landing a major. Having met with those who knew Huberman well, their comments were that he was generous both as a musician and performer, but singularly presented as one. We spent several meetings discussing music but they were aware of my playing as communicated by then teacher and so their words were specific.

When I went in ( just once ) for general coaching, Huberman was brought up again. My scales were not that good but in the short term, I should work on delivering kind and generous music to the audience. Never assume the audience knows or understands the music or notes, that it might be the one time they hear the piece. There were abstracts and ideas in reaching out, expressing, that the audience listening should not require too much effort in understanding what might be communicated through the instrument. I think it meant to playout and perform unapologetically given that I had the humility to understand the work and had it prepared for review. Sensitivity ( micro resolutions ) can be expressed at any dynamic, tonal and vibrato range if we learn how to handle them.

These thoughts on Huberman sank in more than swift shift tricks that I could not manage to improve in 45min. 

Thank you for the heads up. Will listen again.

[Victor Roman]

On 5/9/2024 at 7:02 PM, Stephen Fine said:

Are you familiar with the Huberman recording of Beethoven?  One of my favorite early recordings.

Huberman was a wonderful player and in my youth, listening to him, I was motivated to learn the Joachim Cadenzas. I never understood why he was not appreciated more in Europe. Another brilliant player you reminded me of is Wolfstahl and I thank you for that - ages since I heard that recording last and I am actually not quite sure I did...  Kreisler is ...Kreisler, nothing to comment there. Heifetz in Beethoven and Brahms always left me cold. Not "blaming" him, I think it is just a cultural issue. JH played ( fabulously ! ) for the American public. The European public expected something else, I suppose. I think Ida Haendel dotted the "i" when she pointed in A COUPLE of interviews that Beethoven and Brahms simply, did not suit him.  But then, Ida was the darling of a couple of TOP European Conductors. JH was not...

One of my teachers, who in the 1960s was in his late 80's would explain that up to WWII the success of a violin player depended to some extent on the approval of a certain "clique" - the clique which thought Kreisler was not quite good enough to be a CM, early in his career. But this was long ago and I won't dwell on it.

[VicM]

On 5/9/2024 at 7:16 PM, Stephen Fine said:

While we're having fun:

Here's Wolfsthal playing in 1925:

 

Some interesting moments of rubato here (less than 100 years from the death of Beethoven).

And I think most of us are familiar with this gem from 99 years after Beethoven.

 

Man... this is so nice.  In the old days, Toscha would mention some obscure recording and I'd have to hunt it down by mail order or at a library.  Nowadays I can just post a YouTube link to whatever the heck amazing Beethoven recording I want.  It's an embarrassment of riches.

OK, OK, only one more... from the man the myth* the legend*:

*literally... not that he's not one of the greatest to ever play, but he's just one among the greatest.  He was in the right place at the right time.

The Toscanini / Heifetz version is ridiculous. A mechanical and uninspired player ( here ! ) combined with an Italian Opera conductor. "Bloody time beater.." 

[Victor Roman]

12 hours ago, VicM said:

The Toscanini / Heifetz version is ridiculous. A mechanical and uninspired player ( here ! ) combined with an Italian Opera conductor. "Bloody time beater.." 

I always had a feeling that Heifetz might have suffered a right shoulder injury early in his career. 

His take on Beethoven or Brahms has been criticized enough and I think, slightly off the mark. I don't think a player has an obligation to master all styles. On the other hand Toscanini always sounded to me superficial. A GREAT conducting talent but maybe not a very deep one. 

[fragslap]

I've never quite understood why the descending triplets in the opening measures are always played as doublets.