Sean Couch’s Bench

[resonant]

56 minutes ago, Sean Couch said:

...The first time I held a violin was about 6 weeks ago.

This is crazy to hear! I was constantly using my factory violin as a reference, although with a grain of salt because it's a factory violin after all. And then later an even cheaper ebay violin that I opened up. It's really hard to get a good grasp of the arching from pictures alone, no?

I tried to use cardboard templates briefly but I felt that adjusting for my different arching heights and plate lengths/widths compared to the templates, it was kind of pointless. Eventually I used a straight edge and shadows and hoped for the best.

I'd like to get one of these contour gauges eventually 

[MikeC]

If you make more templates, I suggest using paint stir sticks from Lowes or home depot.  They are just the right thickness and you can rub graphite on them.  I use a charcoal drawing stick from an art store.  They are soft charcoal and leave a good coating on the edge of the template. 

For the long arch template I used a piece of 1/8 plywood that I already had, but I like the paint stir sticks. 

[Sean Couch]

3 hours ago, resonant said:

This is crazy to hear! I was constantly using my factory violin as a reference, although with a grain of salt because it's a factory violin after all. And then later an even cheaper ebay violin that I opened up. It's really hard to get a good grasp of the arching from pictures alone, no?

I tried to use cardboard templates briefly but I felt that adjusting for my different arching heights and plate lengths/widths compared to the templates, it was kind of pointless. Eventually I used a straight edge and shadows and hoped for the best.

I'd like to get one of these contour gauges eventually 

Aha, yeah I am a complete nube to violins, or any bowed instrument. I had piano lessons when I was in elementary school. That was almost 50 years ago. lol. In middle school I played trombone. I don’t have much musicality in me, that I know of. I think learning to play the violin will be more difficult than making one.

I hear ya on the factory violins not being great examples. My mom’s childhood violin is here with me and it has low arching and painted on purfling. It is hard to get a grasp on arching from pictures too. I have been watching videos of people varnishing their violins and paying attention to how the light reflections show the arching contours as they rotate the instrument. It’s about all I can do for now.  

[Sean Couch]

3 hours ago, MikeC said:

If you make more templates, I suggest using paint stir sticks from Lowes or home depot.  They are just the right thickness and you can rub graphite on them.  I use a charcoal drawing stick from an art store.  They are soft charcoal and leave a good coating on the edge of the template. 

For the long arch template I used a piece of 1/8 plywood that I already had, but I like the paint stir sticks. 

Yes, absolutely. I went out and fetched some from Homedepot a week or so ago after you mentioned it. Great idea, but I haven’t used them yet. My local HD didn’t have any of the small ones for free, so I spent a whole $1.50 on a 10 pack. The artist charcoal is probably better than using a #2 pencil.

If I make another violin, I am going to have my neighbor get me in as a visitor to his maker’s guild. They have a laser cutter. Figured I could have it cut out a new form and my templates. I would go with 12mm thick plywood for the form (my current is 18mm) and 1/8” plywood for the arching templates.

[Sean Couch]

I spent a few hours hogging some material out of the top plate. I haven’t messed with the back plate much. It may stay where it is at the 112g and 376Hz. Not sure yet.

I am still shocked every time I switch from working on the maple to working on the spruce. It’s like the wood disappears in front of my eyes. I have the top almost down to 4mm everywhere. She is about 106g now, was a bit over 200g when I started. 

I need to stop here because I need to do some reading and watch some videos and figure out the best way to proceed. The idea of cutting the f-holes is daunting. I reckon I better get myself a saw that can handle the job. I don’t think I am capable of cutting them with a knife.

[Sean Couch]

I think I am ready to cut the f-holes. The top plate is at 79g and M5 is 366Hz. Thickness in the upper and lower bouts is at 2.7mm, top of the arch between the corners is at 3mm, and in the C-bout, going up to the ledge, it is still a bit thick, so I have more work to do there. Maybe a half millimeter or so can be taken away. 

What is the best way to cut the eyes of the f-hole? I see people using those cutters where you drill a pilot hole and then twist the cutter by hand, but I can’t find them for sale anywhere besides Dictum.

I’m not even sure what size the eyes are supposed to be. I have templates here so I can measure them, but I don’t know if the template is any good or not. My fret saw was delivered yesterday so once I figure out the eyes, I’m all set to go.

[Mike Atkins]

49 minutes ago, Sean Couch said:

but I can’t find them for sale anywhere besides Dictum

You can find them here:
https://www.tonewoodforviolin.com/produkt/f-hole-drill-set/

and here:

https://www.internationalviolin.com/tools/miscellaneous-tools/t255-guardelli-f-hole-drill-w10-bits-violin--viola

 

or you could just use a drill, or you could use the fret saw and a round file/sandpaper and a dowel to make them

52 minutes ago, Sean Couch said:

I’m not even sure what size the eyes are supposed to be.

If you have a poster or something you could just measure them or use the information from here:
http://www.makingtheviolin.com/Marking and fluting the F-holes

http://www.makingtheviolin.com/Cutting the f-holes

You're making nice progress and it's looking good!

[Sean Couch]

27 minutes ago, Mike Atkins said:

You can find them here:
https://www.tonewoodforviolin.com/produkt/f-hole-drill-set/

and here:

https://www.internationalviolin.com/tools/miscellaneous-tools/t255-guardelli-f-hole-drill-w10-bits-violin--viola

 

or you could just use a drill, or you could use the fret saw and a round file/sandpaper and a dowel to make them

If you have a poster or something you could just measure them or use the information from here:
http://www.makingtheviolin.com/Marking and fluting the F-holes

http://www.makingtheviolin.com/Cutting the f-holes

You're making nice progress and it's looking good!

Thanks Mike.

I looked on internal violin yesterday and didn’t see that set, but I see it now. Not sure how I missed them, but buying from Dictum and paying 30 some Euro for shipping would be cheaper than international violin. I still need to buy my peg shaver and reamer and also the tools for the end pin, so maybe I’ll put all that in one order and cost average that shipping from Germany. I did that with my initial tool order. The Swiss made gouges are half the price at Dictum than they are here in the USA. Makes that steep shipping easier to swallow.

I just watched a few more videos and, for now, I think I am going to drill small holes in the eyes and then cut everything with the fret saw. Then I’ll chase that with the knives and files and such. I will follow the “Making the Violin” manual. I was just looking at it a few minutes ago. Hehe.

[Mike Atkins]

25 minutes ago, Sean Couch said:

Thanks Mike.

I looked on internal violin yesterday and didn’t see that set, but I see it now. Not sure how I missed them, but buying from Dictum and paying 30 some Euro for shipping would be cheaper than international violin. I still need to buy my peg shaver and reamer and also the tools for the end pin, so maybe I’ll put all that in one order and cost average that shipping from Germany. I did that with my initial tool order. The Swiss made gouges are half the price at Dictum than they are here in the USA. Makes that steep shipping easier to swallow.

I just watched a few more videos and, for now, I think I am going to drill small holes in the eyes and then cut everything with the fret saw. Then I’ll chase that with the knives and files and such. I will follow the “Making the Violin” manual. I was just looking at it a few minutes ago. Hehe.

yeah it’s interesting how sometimes even with international shipping things can be cheaper…I do a lot of pricing research too. I think there also might be an f-hole template in the forms by Addie… maybe

[MikeC]

For the F hole eyes, I'm using small forstner bits from Lowe's.  I don't remember what size though.  They cut a clean hole. Go half way through from each side.  

[Sean Couch]

Well, for better or worse the f-holes are in. The plate is now at 77g with an M5 of 319Hz.

Last night, I drilled some 1/8” holes in each eye and then cut with a fret saw that has 56 teeth per inch. I went nice and easy and didn’t try to force the saw. It was a bit slow going, but I didn’t have to fight the saw and I didn’t break any blades.

Today I cleaned up the f-holes. My knife skills are horrible, so I did the work with files and some pieces of Perma-grit to get into the tight areas. I need to sit down and practice using my knives. I think they would be much faster than using files only.

 

 

[Mike Atkins]

1 hour ago, Sean Couch said:

Well, for better or worse the f-holes are in. The plate is now at 77g with an M5 of 319Hz.

Last night, I drilled some 1/8” holes in each eye and then cut with a fret saw that has 56 teeth per inch. I went nice and easy and didn’t try to force the saw. It was a bit slow going, but I didn’t have to fight the saw and I didn’t break any blades.

Today I cleaned up the f-holes. My knife skills are horrible, so I did the work with files and some pieces of Perma-grit to get into the tight areas. I need to sit down and practice using my knives. I think they would be much faster than using files only.

 

 

Very nice!

[resonant]

F-holes look great. Love the crisp points and edges on the winglets or whatever they're called. 

Are you planning on taking more material off? My final weight was something like 75 with the bass bar and I was already under 3 mm in the arched section. Curious what kind of wood gets one closer to 60 g.

How strictly are you using tap tones as a guide? At some point I was just like, it rings nicely and I'm gonna leave it 

[Sean Couch]

24 minutes ago, Mike Atkins said:

Very nice!

Thanks Mike, yours are coming along nicely too. Love the corner discussion going on lately in your thread. It’s one of my areas of focus for the next one. 

[Davide Sora]

1 hour ago, Sean Couch said:

Well, for better or worse the f-holes are in. The plate is now at 77g with an M5 of 319Hz.

Last night, I drilled some 1/8” holes in each eye and then cut with a fret saw that has 56 teeth per inch. I went nice and easy and didn’t try to force the saw. It was a bit slow going, but I didn’t have to fight the saw and I didn’t break any blades.

Today I cleaned up the f-holes. My knife skills are horrible, so I did the work with files and some pieces of Perma-grit to get into the tight areas. I need to sit down and practice using my knives. I think they would be much faster than using files only.

Next time try cutting just the eyes first, then bring them to the final diameter with round files or round sandpaper sticks (files cut faster). Only at this point cut the stems with the fretsaw and finish the f-holes. In this way, you can do the same process as Stradivari, even if you don't have the appropriate circular cutters. You run much less risk of breaking the sharp edges at the meeting point between the eye and the wing, and you have perfectly circular eyes from the start. And yes, with a knife the cut is much faster and more satisfying.

The weight is a bit high for me too.

 

[Sean Couch]

7 minutes ago, resonant said:

F-holes look great. Love the crisp points and edges on the winglets or whatever they're called. 

Are you planning on taking more material off? My final weight was something like 75 with the bass bar and I was already under 3 mm in the arched section. Curious what kind of wood gets one closer to 60 g.

How strictly are you using tap tones as a guide? At some point I was just like, it rings nicely and I'm gonna leave it 

Thanks, Resonant. Yes, I am going to take more material off. I have some low hanging fruit in the c-bouts next to the ledge. Then I will try to remove material in the upper and lower bouts to increase M5 and then bring the M5 back down to target (320 ish) by removing material in the center.

I am not going to follow the tap tones religiously. I will use them as a guide. I don’t think I will be able to get my top plate down to 60g without the base bar. Maybe 65 or 70g. The top plate already seems quite “free” to me when I flex it, but I have no idea how rigid it should be. 

[Sean Couch]

6 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Next time try cutting just the eyes first, then bring them to the final diameter with round files or round sandpaper sticks (files cut faster). Only at this point cut the stems with the fretsaw and finish the f-holes. In this way, you can do the same process as Stradivari, even if you don't have the appropriate circular cutters. You run much less risk of breaking the sharp edges at the meeting point between the eye and the wing, and you have perfectly circular eyes from the start. And yes, with a knife the cut is much faster and more satisfying.

The weight is a bit high for me too.

 

Right on, I will try that on my next one. It should make things easier to keep a nice clean and sharp corner next to the eye.

Yeah, she is a bit portly at the moment. I have some material in the c-bout area (near the ledge) to remove. I am following your videos as a guide, but I didn’t get the c-bout area next to the ledge down to 3.5 before I cut the f-holes. I also thinned out the wing area of the f-holes too much. I should have marked the f-hole position while scraping, as you mention in your videos.

In the upper and lower bouts, I am close to 2.7mm all around, so my plan is to try and reduce the thickness in the areas that will increase M5. That will take out some weight. Then go back and take away material from the center to bring M5 back into range.

I’m not sure I if I will be able to get my top plate down to 60 to 65g without it being too thin. But then again, I don’t know what too thin would be for my spruce. It already feels quite flexible to me. But again, I have nothing to judge it against.  

[Sean Couch]

I think the top is about as good as I can get it. She is down to 74g with an M5 of 308Hz. Not sure if I can get it down to 70g. I will do a light scraping on it tomorrow to try and get rid of the ripples and smooth things out a bit.

I revisited the back and tweeted it a bit. It is now at 110g and an M5 of 371Hz.

[Sean Couch]

I am going to thin the top a bit more. This morning I found a few spots, in the lower bout, that were a tenth or two over 2.5mm. I am going to go through and take a full set of measurements to identify all thicker spots and see how even the thickness is. I would love to get it down below 70g, but that will probably be a stretch.

How thin is too thin? I read some threads on here last night and it seems like less than 2mm is “getting thin.” Is that general consensus correct?

 

[Sean Couch]

The spruce I’m using looks to have a density of 0.445 g/cm3.

I took a piece of scrap from the top and cleaned it up a bit. It is 10.00x10.40x85.33 mm and it weighs 3.95g. Unless my math is wrong, it looks like my spruce is on the high side for density.

[Sean Couch]

Below are my current measurements. I have more work to do.

My plan is to take the upper and lower bouts down to 2.3 and then see where I am at. I’m not sure if I am going to work on this today or not.

I'll probably let her sit for a while and ponder my options. In the mean time, I think I’ll start working on the bass bar.

[MikeC]

I think your F holes look good.  I don't know much about thickness,  I just aim for 2.5 and use a Strad style punch to get there.  

[Sean Couch]

3 hours ago, MikeC said:

I think your F holes look good.  I don't know much about thickness,  I just aim for 2.5 and use a Strad style punch to get there.  

Thanks Mike, I am not unhappy about the f-holes. I think there are a couple spots that I could touch up a bit.

Yeah, I don’t know much about anything. Lol. So far I have been using a rigged up graduation punch. I took an old bench top drill press that was sitting unused under the basement stairs. I took off the quill recoil spring and I use that. I don’t think it has as much leverage as a proper punch, but it works.

I haven’t been using it while scraping. It seems to be a bit inaccurate, but that is probably operator error. I’ll have to run a couple tests on it before I use it for “fine tuning.” I have a piece of leather (about 1mm thick) covering the wood anvil so I am concerned it will compress and give inaccurate depth holes. I added the leather because I was getting some witness marks on the spruce from the anvil.

[Davide Sora]

18 hours ago, Sean Couch said:

The spruce I’m using looks to have a density of 0.445 g/cm3.

I took a piece of scrap from the top and cleaned it up a bit. It is 10.00x10.40x85.33 mm and it weighs 3.95g. Unless my math is wrong, it looks like my spruce is on the high side for density.

It's a bit heavy, but I know of at least a couple of Guadagninis with that density, so I'd say the possibility that something good could come out of it is there.

[MikeC]

You could remove a little wood from the flat area around the end blocks but that wouldn't reduce weight very much, only a little bit probably.   I think that's called the Sacconi plateau.  

If you look at CT scans of Stradivari violins the arch is very flat in that area over the blocks but I think that has more to do with the recurve of the arching rather than an actual plateau all the way across on the inside.  

But I have not seen good enough images of the inside of a Strad to form a good opinion on that.