Regarding Varnish Recipes

[Alan Smith Estay]

Hi there, I'm about to start varnishing a new violin, and I've had mixed experiences on my previous violins, I see it as part of the process always.

I was thinking in trying to do an amber varnish now and I saw something interesting in a book I got by Georges Foucher on violin varnishes. It's an Amber Spirit varnish, in the book it says that I can eventually dissolve amber, Here's the quote:

Quote

...In its natural state it is not soluble in alcohol nor essence of turpentine nor essential oils.

It can, however, be dissolved by the following process.

Place some in a clean earthenware vessel and heat it gradually, when melted pour on to a marble slab, when it becomes hard again, reduce it to powder.

It can then be readily dissolved in spirit, essence of turpentine and also in all the oils extracted by the distillation of tar.

 And the recipe is this one:

Amber Spirit Varnish

Dissolve in Alcohol: 

4 oz Sandarach

4 oz Prepared Amber

1 oz Mastic

Add broken glass

Proceed as for Exaple No.2*

After dissolution of the rosins add 1 oz. of turpentine (liquid).

*Example No.2: Roll and shake time to time during 24 hours. Heat in a hot water bath. Dilute and colour to requirements.

 

And another thing that I don't understand that much.. What does it mean the "add broken glass" thing? does anybody have a clue on that? 

 

I'll be very grateful for any advice you may have.

Have a nice day/week/month/year and I'll be checking your messages.

 

Alan.

 

Edited April 1, 2024 by Alan Smith Estay

[David Burgess]

3 hours ago, Alan Smith Estay said:

What does it mean the "add broken glass" thing? does anybody have a clue on that? 

It could mean a bunch of things, including that the guy had no idea what he was talking about.

Once upon a time, I put a bunch of powdered dark-red glass into a varnish. Once applied in a typical violin varnish thickness, the change in color was barely noticeable, if at all. The color and color concentration of the glass seemed to work OK in the much thicker windows though.

[Michael Darnton]

I question whether the amber will melt like that. I suspect the author never tried his recipe.

[JacksonMaberry]

The most complete and ultimately fastest way of rendering amber soluble is to "run" it, which is dangerous but doable. Much has been written here and elsewhere on the matter.

You can buy amber that has already been run from Schilbach. I haven't used it but know those who have and it's fine.

Why use an amber spirit varnish? Why use amber on violins at all? It's a boat/coach varnish resin...

[Davide Sora]

Is amber, even pyrogenated, soluble in alcohol?

[jefcostello]

When I previously made amber oil varnish, I cracked the boiled amber into pieces. Then I took a little bit of amber powder and threw it into the rubbing alcohol I used to clean my spirit varnish brushes.

 

I thought I was going to win, and then it still wouldn’t dissolve….

[Michael Darnton]

There was quite a long series of articles in STRAD around 1935-37 about making amber varnish that suggested that the only good way to run amber was in a tightly lidded, not sealed, container, in linseed oil. I have it all xeroxed . . . Somewhere.

[joerobson]

I have never been able to dissolve amber in alcohol. At one point I was working with powdered amber in ground experiments....

Take finely powdered raw amber and put it in a jar. Add oil of spike lavender. Let the jar sit for a year or so. Then you have a nice paste to work with. However varnish won't stick to it. I'll see if I can find the jar.

on we go,

Joe

[JacksonMaberry]

13 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

There was quite a long series of articles in STRAD around 1935-37 about making amber varnish that suggested that the only good way to run amber was in a tightly lidded, not sealed, container, in linseed oil. I have it all xeroxed . . . Somewhere.

I haven't read about running amber in oil in any of my reference texts, so I'd be curious to see what your articles say.

I have not run as much amber as Joe, but I have run at least a couple kilos of it, along with copals, at this point. You get a feel for it. 

[joerobson]

5 hours ago, joerobson said:

I have never been able to dissolve amber in alcohol. At one point I was working with powdered amber in ground experiments....

Take finely powdered raw amber and put it in a jar. Add oil of spike lavender. Let the jar sit for a year or so. Then you have a nice paste to work with. However varnish won't stick to it. I'll see if I can find the jar.

on we go,

Joe

Found it!

[Steve Voigt]

14 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

There was quite a long series of articles in STRAD around 1935-37 about making amber varnish that suggested that the only good way to run amber was in a tightly lidded, not sealed, container, in linseed oil. I have it all xeroxed . . . Somewhere.

In Lost Secrets of Flemish Painting, Donald Fels distinguishes between dark amber varnishes, produced by the method @joerobson and @JacksonMaberry describe, and light amber varnishes, produced by dissolving powdered amber in linseed oil (though I don't recall the tightly lidded part). But the light amber recipes are all long oil varnishes (in the neighborhood of 3:1 oil:resin), and a fair amount of the amber supposedly doesn't dissolve. I have not tried this method.

As I mentioned in a recent thread, the Schilbach pyrogenized amber worked very well for me. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to try amber but is leery of fusing the stuff at 700 F, with the accompanying stink and fire risk.

[JacksonMaberry]

20 minutes ago, Steve Voigt said:

In Lost Secrets of Flemish Painting, Donald Fels distinguishes between dark amber varnishes, produced by the method @joerobson and @JacksonMaberry describe, and light amber varnishes, produced by dissolving powdered amber in linseed oil (though I don't recall the tightly lidded part). But the light amber recipes are all long oil varnishes (in the neighborhood of 3:1 oil:resin), and a fair amount of the amber supposedly doesn't dissolve. I have not tried this method.

As I mentioned in a recent thread, the Schilbach pyrogenized amber worked very well for me. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to try amber but is leery of fusing the stuff at 700 F, with the accompanying stink and fire risk.

Thanks, Steve! That's cool. I gotta read Don's book. 

Amber is super neat stuff, but I really don't bother with it anymore unless someone asks me to make an amber varnish. I don't see the point for what we're doing. 

[carl1961]

Here is a good ( I think so) information on amber varnish, i used his Venetian Amber Varnish, even though I don't know what the hell I am doing!

http://www.jamescgroves.com/germanambervarnish.htm

I used Vernici Liuteria varnish too again I don't know what I am doing!

 

[Mike_Danielson]

Alan, look up the vanish recipe of A.H. Merrill of Portland, OR.  He describes in his book how to fuse amber and then make a varnish by cooking with boiled linseed oil.  Depth of color and redness is controlled by the time he holds it at temperature.  His book was published in the 1930s?  His understanding of varnish is unusually good.  His method is simple--in some ways it reminds me of how Rober Hargrave thinks.

Conjecture:  Broken glass was added to help hold the dirt and particles/precipitates on the bottom.

[Alan Smith Estay]

woah! thanks a lot for all the comments! There's a lot to consider.. Definitely I'll try doing a recipe similar to the one I've made in the past, that as I said, got mixed results, but works well. However I'll try some of the recipes that you ppl are sharing with me, I'm very grateful with all the info you share and I'll be trying to share my process too perhaps in this same topic? 

Any tip on how to measure everything? I usually (and don't judge me hahah I'm on my 4th violin) mix everything just by eye haha

And I'll share a bit of how I made my last varnish:

I extracted yellow from curcuma and some flowers I found where I lived, extracted red from padouk wood and brown from rosewood and I just mixed all those with shellac dissolved in alcohol.

It worked quite well but I messed up the varnish when applying it, but I've learned what not to do for this next violin. 

I know it's a bit too orange in the picture, but it kinda changes depending on the light, that's my second one.

[Alan Smith Estay]

3 hours ago, Mike_Danielson said:

Alan, look up the vanish recipe of A.H. Merrill of Portland, OR.  He describes in his book how to fuse amber and then make a varnish by cooking with boiled linseed oil.  Depth of color and redness is controlled by the time he holds it at temperature.  His book was published in the 1930s?  His understanding of varnish is unusually good.  His method is simple--in some ways it reminds me of how Rober Hargrave thinks.

Conjecture:  Broken glass was added to help hold the dirt and particles/precipitates on the bottom.

thanks for explaining me about the broken glass lol, but is it really like broken glass? reduced to powder? or tiny cristals? I don't like that much the sound of that hahah 

[LCF]

3 hours ago, Mike_Danielson said:

Alan, look up the vanish recipe of A.H. Merrill of Portland, OR.  He describes in his book how to fuse amber and then make a varnish by cooking with boiled linseed oil.  Depth of color and redness is controlled by the time he holds it at temperature.  His book was published in the 1930s?  His understanding of varnish is unusually good.  His method is simple--in some ways it reminds me of how Rober Hargrave thinks.

Conjecture:  Broken glass was added to help hold the dirt and particles/precipitates on the bottom.

Broken glass could be like boiling chips used to reduce the risk of eruptions. 

[Dmitry Volkov]

I found very interesting option of Stradivarius varhish discovered by an Ukranian luthier: https://youtu.be/rrEM35miPBc?si=0PhXhYEhhKWuI-rP

Edited May 5, 2024 by Dmitry Volkov

[MikeC]

56 minutes ago, Dmitry Volkov said:

I found very interesting option of Stradivarius warhish discovered by Ukranian violin master: https://youtu.be/rrEM35miPBc?si=0PhXhYEhhKWuI-rP

Well, that was interesting.  Probably lake pigments, although those are quite easy to make.   

I dislike those computerized voices in videos, he should use a better translator and a real narrator.  but I wish all his videos and website were translated, I would watch them.   

[Mike_Danielson]

i took a quick look at the video.  It looks like the maker adds a tiny amount of alizarin crimson to his varnish.  You cannot add much because you will lose transparency.  And the varnish is unusually red for a traditional Strad-looking varnish.

[uguntde]

On 4/2/2024 at 3:20 AM, Davide Sora said:

Is amber, even pyrogenated, soluble in alcohol?

No. And it is hard to melt. There is always a lo of unmeltable residue. Not worrth the effort as amber is a very heterogeneous material.

[LCF]

I had a thought, perhaps we could make varnishes using old tins of  polyurethane which have set solid, pyrogenating it to break down the polymers into soluble sub-units? This could be a pursuit for future makers as they attempt to retrocreate the fantastic polyurethane varnishes of the 20C ...

[christian bayon]

On 4/7/2024 at 12:21 PM, Dmitry Volkov said:

I found very interesting option of Stradivarius warhish discovered by Ukranian violin master: https://youtu.be/rrEM35miPBc?si=0PhXhYEhhKWuI-rP

joke?

[christian bayon]

On 4/1/2024 at 4:03 PM, Alan Smith Estay said:

And another thing that I don't understand that much.. What does it mean the "add broken glass" thing? does anybody have a clue on that? 

 

I'll be very grateful for any advice you may have.

Have a nice day/week/month/year and I'll be checking your messages.

 

Alan.

 

To add broken glass in the varnish made with alcohol was a common practice in old recepy to avoid the resins to stick together , it has only a mechanical purpose, very efficient, when you shake the container, the glass helps to mix properly alcohol and resins.

[NicholasP]

On 4/1/2024 at 11:03 AM, Alan Smith Estay said:

Hi there, I'm about to start varnishing a new violin, and I've had mixed experiences on my previous violins, I see it as part of the process always.

I was thinking in trying to do an amber varnish now and I saw something interesting in a book I got by Georges Foucher on violin varnishes. It's an Amber Spirit varnish, in the book it says that I can eventually dissolve amber, Here's the quote:

 And the recipe is this one:

Amber Spirit Varnish

Dissolve in Alcohol: 

4 oz Sandarach

4 oz Prepared Amber

1 oz Mastic

Add broken glass

Proceed as for Exaple No.2*

After dissolution of the rosins add 1 oz. of turpentine (liquid).

*Example No.2: Roll and shake time to time during 24 hours. Heat in a hot water bath. Dilute and colour to requirements.

 

And another thing that I don't understand that much.. What does it mean the "add broken glass" thing? does anybody have a clue on that? 

 

I'll be very grateful for any advice you may have.

Have a nice day/week/month/year and I'll be checking your messages.

 

Alan.

 

The glass might be to give it a sparkle or a shine. No idea but it probably has to be really fine of a powder.