Weak G string on 118 year old Charles Hammermiller

[carl1961]

I was hoping someone could point me why you would have a Weak G string  while D, A and E or ok. when I had the top off to fix the cracks and checked plate thickness the top is thin in spots as low as 1.5 mm  around the neck cheek areas . I tied moving sound post and nothing is touching the body ( Chin rest, tail piece etc.) I was wonder if it could be a bad bassbar?

Picture from before the cracks was fixed.

[carl1961]

I forgot I posted these pictures a couple years ago

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/gallery/album/213-charles-hammermiller-1906-violin/

[edi malinaric]

hello carl1961

Is there a convention for viewing graduation pics?

In the pic of the front plate, the solid bass bar suggests that one is viewing the plate from the inside.

For the back plate.....?

Maybe if one shows the position of the sound post?

How did you repair the scroll cracks?

cheers edi

 

[carl1961]

21 minutes ago, edi malinaric said:

hello carl1961

Is there a convention for viewing graduation pics?

In the pic of the front plate, the solid bass bar suggests that one is viewing the plate from the inside.

For the back plate.....?

Maybe if one shows the position of the sound post?

How did you repair the scroll cracks?

cheers edi

 

there may be a rule, those or viewed from inside as you scrap and thumb plane.

I used hide glue and glued the cracks and then put a patch inside peg box. didn't do to good hiding it. I used Wittner Finetune Geared Violin Pegs so there is no pressure on the peg box like traditional pegs

[edi malinaric]

Hi Carl1961 - ouch?

Here in Cape Town we have a gifted viola-maker, Vivienne Cowley. My elder brother's violin wasn't able to withstand the attentions of his very young grandson and "developed" a hole through the lower rib. I asked Vivienne to do the repair. 

Golden Rule - never do repairs for family!.

 

Vivienne did a very nice patch-of-rib and her spirit varnish produced perfectly matching "tiger stripes" that moved the repair into invisibility. (One day I'll ask her if she ever studied at Hogwarts)

Elder bro seemed happy.

Cheers edi

[Michael Darnton]

For your G string I would start by making a longer post that fit tightly as your current one, but 4mm inside the outer edge of the foot rather than the normal 1mm.

That's too far in, but it will give you an idea of the type of change you will get by doing this and see if you want to mess around in that direction. From that position, moving back to normal is just one slice at a time.

[Don Noon]

"Weak G string" could be a lot of different things.  I'd want to diagnose the issue a little better, to see where the problem likes in the frequency spectrum.  The G fundamental is always weak, except for around the A0 frequency (C - C#).  The thin grads should make this range about as strong as possible.

Most likely there is some weakness in the first few harmonics.  Above that, the overtones of the G string and the other strings begin to overlap.

If you could post an audio file of a bowed semitone scale on the G string, it could be analyzed to see where the weakness lies.  Maybe.  Or if you're comfortable with bridge impacts, that might also be informative.

[Victor Roman]

4 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

For your G string I would start by making a longer post that fit tightly as your current one, but 4mm inside the outer edge of the foot rather than the normal 1mm.

That's too far in, but it will give you an idea of the type of change you will get by doing this and see if you want to mess around in that direction. From that position, moving back to normal is just one slice at a time.

I had my violin set up like that ( ~4mm in)  and the G string was what I would call flabby. When corrected the G gained more punch.

[Michael Darnton]

@Victor Roman Exactly, but if the G is too tight and closed that can open it up. Four mm is as far as I'd go, and then you can gradually work it back to 1 mm a slice at a time and stop when you like it, if it seems to be working. That's my go-to when everything else is pretty much OK, and then the G just drops off the face of the earth. It's a reliable fix for high narrow arches, for instance.

I know there are and have been makers who go the other way, outside of the bridge, to firm up a flabby G, but in my experience that really doesn't do enough unless there's just a little flab. I believe that Sergio Peresson did this regularly, for instance, and I know one modern maker who does, also. But the real problem isn't the post, and it's not the bar, either, in those cases.

[Deo Lawson]

There are countless factors that may cause a G string to be weaker than the other strings. A good bass bar is important, of course, as is a well made plate. I would make sure the bridge is not excessively heavy, as that can sap a lot of energy from the bass side. The soundpost offers room for adjustment but it is less black and white. I've never seen a G string transform as a result of a soundpost movement, unless it was really really wrong.

[Victor Roman]

33 minutes ago, Deo Lawson said:

There are countless factors that may cause a G string to be weaker than the other strings. A good bass bar is important, of course, as is a well made plate. I would make sure the bridge is not excessively heavy, as that can sap a lot of energy from the bass side. The soundpost offers room for adjustment but it is less black and white. I've never seen a G string transform as a result of a soundpost movement, unless it was really really wrong.

My experience is that it matters a lot who is fitting and adjusting the soundpost. My school violin ( German factory ) which carried me through the Conservatory and which was quite underwhelming ( am being nice here ) was miraculously transformed through a new soundpost by a real expert and in maybe less than half an hour. I suspect at least one of the reasons old Italian violins sound better is because they are adjusted by people who know what they are doing. Another thing I derived from experience is that it is pointless to chase some elusive perfection. Good enough is good enough and some degree of care with bow pressure and speed will sort out the reminder.  

[Michael Darnton]

So Carl, you can do what the other guys told you-sit on your hands and harumph wisely and unhelpfully,ruminating on all of the myriad and possible ways that a violin can go wrong, but have no idea how to start in on the problem--or you can take an hour and do something I've done many times that solved similar problems for other people but might not solve yours. I don't guarantee anything here because it's a guess without the violin in front of me, and it's an hour of your time and at least a dollar worth the wood, so no hard feelings if you don't give it a shot.

And as Victor said, it might entirely have to do with whose hands are doing the job, so there's that.   https://darntonhersh.com/notable-sales/

[jacobsaunders]

About 20 years ago, I had a new assistant, fresh out of England who came to work for me. He had only been there about a week, and couldn’t speak any German at all. A young lady came in and went straight to him, I shouted across the room “He only speaks English” so she took a deep breath, and said in her best Viennese English, “My G-string is too loose!”. That scared him off

[Aston4]

I doubt this has much to do with your G string, but I do not think those wittner pegs are pushed in far enough?  Did you read the instructions?  I seem to recall they are supposed to be in further.

[carl1961]

12 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

For your G string I would start by making a longer post that fit tightly as your current one, but 4mm inside the outer edge of the foot rather than the normal 1mm.

That's too far in, but it will give you an idea of the type of change you will get by doing this and see if you want to mess around in that direction. From that position, moving back to normal is just one slice at a time.

Thanks @Michael Darnton , very interesting, I will try this, I hate the thought of having to open up this old violin. First I going to replace the strings with new ones these or 2 years old, and Note were the sound post is currently. when I removed the strings the sound post did not fall (been 2 years since installed).   

[carl1961]

10 hours ago, Don Noon said:

"Weak G string" could be a lot of different things.  I'd want to diagnose the issue a little better, to see where the problem likes in the frequency spectrum.  The G fundamental is always weak, except for around the A0 frequency (C - C#).  The thin grads should make this range about as strong as possible.

Most likely there is some weakness in the first few harmonics.  Above that, the overtones of the G string and the other strings begin to overlap.

If you could post an audio file of a bowed semitone scale on the G string, it could be analyzed to see where the weakness lies.  Maybe.  Or if you're comfortable with bridge impacts, that might also be informative.

I will do that , After I replace the strings and before I install a longer sound post.  here is the original first done 2 years ago, if you can bare the playing!

[carl1961]

3 hours ago, Aston4 said:

I doubt this has much to do with your G string, but I do not think those wittner pegs are pushed in far enough?  Did you read the instructions?  I seem to recall they are supposed to be in further.

Sorry I meant Knilling Perfection Pegs, the slightly thread in. 

[Don Noon]

13 minutes ago, carl1961 said:

 here is the original first done 2 years ago

I am not hearing or seeing in the spectrum anything obviously weak with the G string, at least in the fundamental and first 2 overtones.  I'd put on a good new G string and see what happens, then maybe mess with the post.  What strings are on there now?

[Michael Darnton]

Doesn't sound weak to me!  I think I retract my advice. :-)

[carl1961]

1 hour ago, Michael Darnton said:

Doesn't sound weak to me!  I think I retract my advice. :-)

that sound file was two years ago at first putting that violin back together. G string was defiantly worse last weak. today I removed the strings looked in the tail pin hole , sound post was straight but it was not correctly behind the bridge foot. moving it more towards the middle direction, the post was to short. I am currently fitting a longer post. 

[carl1961]

After installing another sound post, and moving it to normal location , about 4mm behind bridge foot  and new strings (Addario Zyex  Medium Tension) and letting sound post settle a week, Violin is much better on the G. recorded with cell phone