Loudness vs.string tension

[Anders Buen]

19 hours ago, reguz said:

I think there is a big misunderstanding with the concept of loudness. Loudness may not mean how much sound is produced but says nothing about how far the sound radiates. There can be a lot of sound at the player's ear but little sound reaching out into a large hall. What then are we talking about?

Loudness is a psychoacoustics term. The sound level in a rom from a source, like a played violin, is closely related to the sound power from it. The directivity may be complex above 0,8 kHz, but the room reflections even aout that effect to some externt. The directivty is mainly experienced in the direct sound.

Loudness is related to the sound power level and can be looked at as a measure of distance and to some extent size and energy, all useful in a evolution history perspective. And it will almost excusively come out of listening tests as being an impotant factor. In tests of timbre, the loudness is adjusted to the same for all sounds, so that factor can be removed in the material.

The idea with a different sound under the ear, and at distance, may be related to the ears different sensitivity to the different parts of the spectrum as well as masking effects. At higher sound levels, the bass is heard better. Also in a concert hall some of the sound around 200-300 Hz is lost due to the periodic and porous properties of the seats. «The Seat dip effect». It is also active in halls with «hard seats», even in an empty hall.

It is important to make a violin pump, or «breathe», sound well in the signature mode range, something that has been well known since Meinel, and his mentor Backhaus, started to analyse vibrations and acoustic output of violins. The lowest modes does this automatically. The B1+ can be less efficient if the beidning component is larger than the breathing component in that mode. There is an additional, possible monopole, the C4 (Jansson) or «ring mode in the back plate» (Marshall). Backhous saw this in the 1920ties in a Strad with his condenser based modal analysis system. 

[martin swan]

14 hours ago, baroquecello said:

Here is the video I was talking about Brinton Smith is a fantastic cellist and plays a great instrument. The three string combos with their respective tensions tried out in this video are "Dominant ForteA/Forte/Medium/Obligato C 50.8 Oliv Heavy set total- 58.45 Rondo Exp A/Jargar Evoke D/JE G/Rondo C total 59.9" 

 

read his "the reveal" comment lower down. Entertaining!

 

so yeah, I think some of the math here has very little relation to real world acoustics.

I like this video a lot - it illustrates perfectly the fact that string tension and volume are not related.

But it seems to me to suffer from the same logical flaws as pretty much all the "shoot-outs" which I've been involved in, where people go into a hall to choose/road-test an instrument or a bow.

It discusses loudness or audibility without reference to the quality of sound and whether you actually want to listen to it or find it musically expressive (in the specific test the gut strings seem to me to always sound more musical but they lack maybe 2% of irrelevant "edge").

It seeks to measure tone and audibility in a large hall but with an unaccompanied player - this is really a test of nothing, since audibility is so frequency-related, and as soon as there are other instruments playing this becomes absolutely crucial.

It analyses loudness without considering what the baseline is - by this I mean, what is the point of additional loudness if the quietest sample (set of strings or choice of instrument or bow) is already loud enough?

[Michael Darnton]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

loudness or audibility without reference to the quality of sound and whether you actually want to listen to it or find it musically expressive

Ha! There's something I always tell customers trying instruments: there is louder as in "more of what you want to hear", and louder as in "this violin sounds so nasty I can't get far enough away from it." In the heat of the moment the difference is often not sufficiently considered.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

On 3/28/2024 at 8:36 PM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

 

I just had a professional viola player compare one of my violas with his.  His was was about 3dB louder but his cost about $30,000 more which is $10,000/dB.  So even a little dB increase is really important.

 

This viola player has rotator cuff injury and is on a medical leave from his orchestra  He has been playing viola for about 40 years and would like to recover.  His viola appears to be a typical midsize one and I'm guessing it is about 16  1/4-1/2 inches long.

He was interested in trying one of my small  ight violas (14 1/4 inch, 407g with chin rest and built-in shoulder rest) to see if he could continue playing.  He and another player friend switched playing back and forth with his viola and mine.  The playing was done in a large hall and they thought my small viola was very easy to hold sounded pretty good but all of us thought it wasn't quite as loud as his. I'm quessing it was about 3dB difference.

Both violas were using the same brand strings--medium tension Thomastic Infeld Pi.  He compared their string lengths sided by side and mine were about 25mm shorter than his.  Mine are 345mm so his were about 370mm. There was some question whether or not this shorter string length reduced the sound output due to its reduced tension.

Tension is proportional to the string length squared so the shorter string length gave a 0.85 fraction of the tension. For example his Pi A string has a tension of 17.9lb at 370mm and would be only 15.3lb on my short viola.

It appears that this reduction in string tension does not produce much difference in loudness (decibels, sones, phons, whatever) so likewise it does not seem possible to boost sound output much by using higher tension("heavy) strings for my shorter string length.

 

Changing subjects a little:  The 10-13mm lengthening of strings from a Baroque to a modern violin probably didn't increase loudness much either.

 

 

 

 

[martin swan]

31 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

 

It appears that this reduction in string tension does not produce much difference in loudness (decibels, sones, phons, whatever) so likewise it does not seem possible to boost sound output much by using higher tension("heavy) strings for my shorter string length.

On small violas the problem with using regular length strings on a short stop is they are flappy - you can't then bow the strings hard enough to produce volume without making horrible and out of tune sounds.

The "loudness" doesn't relate directly to the string tension, but to the amount of volume a player can generate from them in a musical fashion.

The "sound output" is not generated by the strings but by the player. 

[reguz]

Simple question; How much sound comes from the string frequency vibration at any time?

If the answer is "almost nothing" than where is the frequency produced on the string produce sound and how much importance has the area on the instrument that make the sound to do with loudness. Is it not just the area thus the pump function projecting the sound that is related to loudness.

 

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, reguz said:

Simple question; How much sound comes from the string frequency vibration at any time?

About three whammyworths.

[Marcus London]

Higher mass of string = higher tension to  tune = higher inertia and more vibrational energy in the string.

BUT it is a system involving bow, string, bridge, violin, Helmholtz resonances etc. so there is an optimal balance. If higher tension was ‘good', where would it stop?

Look at pianos, getting brighter and brighter, but I prefer Bosendorfer to Steinway with a violin. 

Lower tension modern strings seem about right. Dare I say it Dominants as a standard. Most instruments sound open and good with low tension strings. G string gets louder in my experience with lower tension strings. A high tension E will stifle your G.

How much sound, how loud it is, is by bowing to activate all the above resonances, the energy brought by the bow on the string, which comes from the whole body and the natural weight of a relaxed arm. Again, if bowing harder was ‘good’ where would it stop?

[Dr. Mark]

2 hours ago, reguz said:

Simple question; How much sound comes from the string frequency vibration at any time?

Welcome back.

[jezzupe]

1 hour ago, Marcus London said:

Higher mass of string = higher tension to  tune = higher inertia and more vibrational energy in the string.

BUT it is a system involving bow, string, bridge, violin, Helmholtz resonances etc. so there is an optimal balance. If higher tension was ‘good', where would it stop?

Look at pianos, getting brighter and brighter, but I prefer Bosendorfer to Steinway with a violin. 

Lower tension modern strings seem about right. Dare I say it Dominants as a standard. Most instruments sound open and good with low tension strings. G string gets louder in my experience with lower tension strings. A high tension E will stifle your G.

How much sound, how loud it is, is by bowing to activate all the above resonances, the energy brought by the bow on the string, which comes from the whole body and the natural weight of a relaxed arm. Again, if bowing harder was ‘good’ where would it stop?

I bet we could get David to hook up a horsehair hank chain on a chainsaw "we ain't stoppin' until this thing either cuts in half, folds in half or the sound post shoots out my eye"

[Anders Buen]

It is fun to play a high pitched and tensioned string set on a fiddle. It feels stiffer under the fingers, so it may be easier to play if the string height is rather low over the fingerboard. Because increased pitch mixes with the increased tension, if we just tune the insturment up, it is difficult to tell the increased loudness from the increased and more intense pitch and tone. 

I am quite sure the instrument becomes louder. And inspiring instruments may tend to be played louder by the more vigorous bowing. 

One of my chinese violins rebuilt to a HF, see the article with the info on the transition above, has a note on the e-string while played double, that it sometimes distorts the sound in my ears. Judst one note, and it is louder than normal.

[LCF]

12 hours ago, Anders Buen said:

Loudness is a psychoacoustics term. 

No no no

https://youtu.be/KOO5S4vxi0o?si=VsUO43KVgDDKRw9U

 

[LCF]

7 hours ago, Marcus London said:

 ... G string gets louder in my experience with lower tension strings. A high tension E will stifle your G...

 

Or are you simply bowing less hard (Force? Velocity?) due to the response of the different strings?  Is the higher tension E more 'sensitive', so you tend to hold back? 

These are difficult things to be objective about but I think ITBS, it's the bow. 

 

 

 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

7 hours ago, Marcus London said:

Higher mass of string = higher tension to  tune = higher inertia and more vibrational energy in the string.

BUT it is a system involving bow, string, bridge, violin, Helmholtz resonances etc. so there is an optimal balance. If higher tension was ‘good', where would it stop?

Look at pianos, getting brighter and brighter, but I prefer Bosendorfer to Steinway with a violin. 

Lower tension modern strings seem about right. Dare I say it Dominants as a standard. Most instruments sound open and good with low tension strings. G string gets louder in my experience with lower tension strings. A high tension E will stifle your G.

How much sound, how loud it is, is by bowing to activate all the above resonances, the energy brought by the bow on the string, which comes from the whole body and the natural weight of a relaxed arm. Again, if bowing harder was ‘good’ where would it stop?

More loudness from using higher tensions should stop when wolf notes become too sever--the body vibrates too much which screws up the string's bowing.

 

(explained in 25 words or less and without any mathematical equations)

[La Folia]

6 hours ago, Anders Buen said:

It is fun to play a high pitched and tensioned string set on a fiddle. It feels stiffer under the fingers, so it may be easier to play if the string height is rather low over the fingerboard. Because increased pitch mixes with the increased tension, if we just tune the insturment up, it is difficult to tell the increased loudness from the increased and more intense pitch and tone. 

I am quite sure the instrument becomes louder. And inspiring instruments may tend to be played louder by the more vigorous bowing.

I'm sure it works that way.  I've got a screamer of a Dyre Vaa.  I tuned it down a step, and that really tamed it, a bit too much.  I'm converting it to Setesdal.  It would be too mellow for that with the current strings, but I'm guessing it will be fine with heavy strings.

[Anders Buen]

10 hours ago, LCF said:

No no no

It is, but it is used in the everday language, as well. 

[LCF]

21 minutes ago, Anders Buen said:

It is, but it is used in the everday language, as well. 

Did you watch the vid? Turning it up to 11 is the way to go 

[martin swan]

10 hours ago, LCF said:

No no no

https://youtu.be/KOO5S4vxi0o?si=VsUO43KVgDDKRw9U

 

The most perfect articulation ever of the concept of "louder" 

[Anders Buen]

3 hours ago, LCF said:

Did you watch the vid? Turning it up to 11 is the way to go 

No, im very hard to guide. 

[Dr. Mark]

56 minutes ago, Anders Buen said:

No, im very hard to guide

Sneak a peak - no one will ever know...

[Anders Buen]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

Sneak a peak - no one will ever know...

Sometimes I just decide not to do certain things. 

[David Burgess]

40 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

Sneak a peak - no one will ever know...

"They" know!!!

[martin swan]

2 hours ago, Anders Buen said:

No, im very hard to guide. 

It's a brilliant clip from the savagely funny film "Spinal Tap".

[Aston4]

delete

 

[jezzupe]

18 hours ago, LCF said:

No no no

https://youtu.be/KOO5S4vxi0o?si=VsUO43KVgDDKRw9U

 

Hey that's my tag line....I always thought Loudness was a Japanese metal band. Akira Takasaki is loud