Loudness vs.string tension

[LCF]

3 hours ago, LCF said:

This and your previous observation are exactly what the Schelleng bow force diagram predicts. .

The graph plus links to a Woodhouse paper. https://images.app.goo.gl/naoFrszSj5r54Nic8

[Dr. Mark]

2 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

It seems like a simple experiment to determine the effect of the shorter string length.  Then the rest of the decreased loudness must be due to the different size viola bodies or their construction

Well, I think it can be simple if you use a calibrated input to help ensure that the inputs are the same.  In fact, why would we want a violin to show the effect of string tension?  Independent of the violin body it's just the string amplitude at frequency, although there are also some considerations regarding where the calibrated input is applied along the string.  At first glance it seems at distances proportional to the string length along the string, but that's a little problematic...so there are a few things I think need to be considered...

 

[Dr. Mark]

6 hours ago, GoPractice said:

You are just being mean

I'm suffering from from historic bias - back when physics was the study of the universe as it behaves in the absence of human intervention.  To which QM replied: *snicker*.

[iNeedAnswers]

12 hours ago, Victor Roman said:

It does not or if it does it is a small effect. I playED both steel and synthetic strings. for over 60 years. I can bow much harder on steel strings and if I don't bow hard enough some steel strings do not quite get going. 

You need to isolate variables. You can't just use a completely different type of string and compare them, reducing them to one of the many differences. That just does not work at all. 

[LCF]

9 hours ago, LCF said:

The graph plus links to a Woodhouse paper. https://images.app.goo.gl/naoFrszSj5r54Nic8

Marty already linked a pdf of a Woodhouse presentation on this subject back on p7 of this thread which goes into a wealth of detail.

[Victor Roman]

2 hours ago, iNeedAnswers said:

You need to isolate variables. You can't just use a completely different type of string and compare them, reducing them to one of the many differences. That just does not work at all. 

That is what I did. Only you did not have the horsepower to pick it up.

[iNeedAnswers]

No, you changed the string material to a very different type. Synthetics, as you said 60 years, I assume Nylon, and metal strings have very different elasticity moduls, very different speeds of density wave propagation, very different density as well. You really isolated nothing there. 

I would be very interested in how you plan to isolate tension anyway. There is no string set on the market allowing it easily and not be be mean, but the experimental setup needed to achieve anything of that like is a bit too sophisticated for you or mostly anyone without significant funds. 

[Victor Roman]

2 hours ago, iNeedAnswers said:

No, you changed the string material to a very different type. Synthetics, as you said 60 years, I assume Nylon, and metal strings have very different elasticity moduls, very different speeds of density wave propagation, very different density as well. You really isolated nothing there. 

I would be very interested in how you plan to isolate tension anyway. There is no string set on the market allowing it easily and not be be mean, but the experimental setup needed to achieve anything of that like is a bit too sophisticated for you or mostly anyone without significant funds. 

You are not paying attention. The starting question was : "Has anybody ever measured the dB increase in loudness going from "light" to "medium" to "heavy" tension strings? ". I related my experience within the context of the question, without any pretense of "scienticism". I am not a scientist, I am ( or was ) a professional violin player of some experience. One of the things I noticed was that tighter strings need more bow pressure for the same loudness. And also, tighter strings can take more bow pressure and if one digs into them hard they'll make for a louder violin. Unless one looks at the lightest tension synthetics vs the highest tension steel strings the difference in my opinion is not significant for the same instrument. The differences in loudness between different violins are by comparison, HUGE. To the extent that I have encountered violins so loud they could not be used in a quartet.

[iNeedAnswers]

15 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

You are not paying attention. The starting question was : "Has anybody ever measured the dB increase in loudness going from "light" to "medium" to "heavy" tension strings? ". I related my experience within the context of the question, without any pretense of "scienticism". I am not a scientist, I am ( or was ) a professional violin player of some experience. One of the things I noticed was that tighter strings need more bow pressure for the same loudness. And also, tighter strings can take more bow pressure and if one digs into them hard they'll make for a louder violin. Unless one looks at the lightest tension synthetics vs the highest tension steel strings the difference in my opinion is not significant for the same instrument. The differences in loudness between different violins are by comparison, HUGE. To the extent that I have encountered violins so loud they could not be used in a quartet.

You literally quoted me saying that generally tension should increase loudness and answered specifically to that calling it wrong because of some to that matter unrelated experience, later claiming you isolated the variable, apparently via thickness of the string, which is not isolating it. 

The rest you talk about really is noise unrelated to the statement you quoted.

[LCF]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:28 AM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

My recent violas are getting so small they could be used as either violins or violas with different choices of strings.

Leaving aside the possibility of pronoun mutations are your scale lengths suitable for using a partial five string violin set of CGDA as opposed to a viola set?  Since they're optimised for a shorter scale I'm guessing the tensions won't be too low or even if they are a little low they might be ideal for a short scale viola.

Maybe. 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

1 hour ago, LCF said:

Leaving aside the possibility of pronoun mutations are your scale lengths suitable for using a partial five string violin set of CGDA as opposed to a viola set?  Since they're optimised for a shorter scale I'm guessing the tensions won't be too low or even if they are a little low they might be ideal for a short scale viola.

Maybe. 

Back in 2022 I made a small five string viola for a violin & viola teacher.  It had a body lenght of 370mm (14 5/8in.), a string length of 345mm and the A0 frequency was 247Hz.  He likes it very much and it saves him the trouble of carrying around two instruments.

I'm going to make my next instruments a little bit shorter and the same size as violins so I can use standard 325mm EADG violin strings of which there are many available choices.

Or it could be set up with the same violin DAG strings with a special short 325mm C string if it set up as viola.  The advantage of doing this is that overly sensitive violin players wouldn't have to relearn their fingering positions if they wanted to play a viola in tune.  Viola players can play anything.

But switching strings back and forth might not be a good idea because the bridge notches won't be right for both sets.

So a five string version makes sense If the player can remember where his fingers are (on the fingerboard).

 

 

 

[Aston4]

1 hour ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Back in 2022 I made a small five string viola for a violin & viola teacher.  It had a body lenght of 370mm (14 5/8in.), a string length of 345mm and the A0 frequency was 247Hz.  He likes it very much and it saves him the trouble of carrying around two instruments.

 

 

 

Did it sound more like a violin, or more like a viola?

[Marty Kasprzyk]

17 hours ago, Aston4 said:

Did it sound more like a violin, or more like a viola?

The G string's notes were strong so it sounded more like a viola.