Using purchased templates (or practical alternatives)

[nycklarna]

Hello,

 

I have some questions about using templates. I got the 5-piece Herdim template set as a starting point. This may have been my first mistake, but it's what I have for now. I started working with the inner template and realized way too late that I don't know if the template represents the inner edge or outer edge of the ribs. That is to say, if I make my mold with the exact outline of the template, will my ribs be correct, or will they be ~2-3mm too big. If the latter, how bad is that? Any advice on using these templates is greatly appreciated, since they don't really come with any information that I can find.

 

I have the Johnson/Courtnall book as my primary reference, and it of course discusses making templates from posters, but that feels out of scope for me, as it leaves too much open for me to interpret/ruin. If anybody has alternatives to recommend, I am very interested in that also.

 

I have looked for information on the Herdim templates both here and elsewhere and didn't find anything, so I do apologize if this is a duplicate.

 

Thanks!

[Wood Butcher]

If it is this set https://www.dictum.com/en/measuring-inspection-instruments-jbo/herdim-outline-templates-5-piece-set-violin-strad-mediceo-1716-739404

The template at the top will be the form. This does not include the ribs.

Make sure to get the ribs the correct thickness, and very well bent. For if you do not, and then use the plate template for your final outline, you may find there is not enough edge overhang.

Most people make the final outline from the ribs, once finished. So you always have the correct overhang this way.

[H.R.Fisher]

      Best check again,  I have the same templates purchased some years ago, mine has the top template the outside dimension of the ribs. Perhaps they have changed it, I had to make my own template 1+ some mm smaller.

[nycklarna]

Thanks for the replies!

 

16 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

If it is this set https://www.dictum.com/en/measuring-inspection-instruments-jbo/herdim-outline-templates-5-piece-set-violin-strad-mediceo-1716-739404

It's the Kreissler, but that's the set, yeah.

16 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Most people make the final outline from the ribs, once finished. So you always have the correct overhang this way.

This was my plan, but I want to be close to spec.

 

7 hours ago, H.R.Fisher said:

      Best check again

What would be a good way to go about that? I haven't found good source for the length or width of a finished rib structure other than the specific top minus some overhang, which seems to be a range.

 

 

As I said, I realized too late that this might be an issue and ended up with corners that were way too long:

 

I have since remedied this somewhat by shaving down the insides of the C bouts, and gotten it mostly within the top template. The main reason I am posting now is that I am considering starting a second set of ribs while the experience of the first set is still fresh, and if this was a mistake on my part, I'd like to learn how to avoid making it again.

Edited March 19 by nycklarna
spelling

[Jay Higgs]

I have a set of Herdim Templates.  The inside form is labeled as coming from the top, and the outside form is labeled as coming from the back of a 1716 Strad.  If you assume perfect symmetry (which I know is unlikely in the actual instrument), then you can line them up as attached. The difference is about 3.5 mm.  If your ribs are 1 mm thick and a perfect fit to the form, then that would give an overhang of 2.5 mm.  Anything slightly loose, and rib assembly will be larger than intended.  A common error by autodidacts like me is making the points too prominent. Micheal Danton addresses this issue very well.  https://violinmag.com/.  I would not try to use the outside pattern to fit a plate on your ribs; trace around the ribs with a pencil inside a correctly sized washer for the desired overhang.  Do this while the ribs are still in the mold to avoid distortion.  

[Michael Darnton]

I have not yet seen a commercial template worth thanks to serious  inaccuracy.

I prefer to work from a good photo well edited and untwisted. Photoshop + measurements + good eyes.

[Shunyata]

The forms are outside rib (sort of), not inside… as you found out the hard way.  So did I the first time.

You need to make your own inside template based on the steel outside template.  And even then there is significant “craftsmanship” needed to handle the point shape.  Being extremely rigorous about the symmetry in your mold, the shapes of your blocks will help you to manage this.

Pros bash the steel templates as they don’t entirely match the stated model.  But as a basic shape to get you started I find they are wonderfully helpful.  But you also miss out on developing the intimate understanding of the geometry (e.g. corner mechanics) that you get making your own templates.  I had ridiculously pointy corners for a few years until I made my own templates.

[David Burgess]

4 hours ago, Jay Higgs said:

If your ribs are 1 mm thick and a perfect fit to the form, then that would give an overhang of 2.5 mm

That works OK for making most of a top or back outline from either the form or the rib assembly, except that the corners are a huge exception. The rib corner shape needs to take into account the desired plate outline. Maintaining equal edge spacing between the outline of the top and back doesn't work in the corners, unless one wants to produce exceptionally long corners. 

[nycklarna]

It's sounding like for my next set of ribs, I may want to ditch the metal templates and make my own half template from a picture.

Questions:

1. Aside from the strad posters, are there any good sources of low-distortion images to work from?
2. If I go that route, is 351mm a good target length for the finished ribs? (and more generally, am I likely to get good results just taking measurements from the top and subtracting 2.5mm from each side?)
3. Are the neck/scroll and f-hole templates still useful or would I be better of seeing elsewhere for those as well?

 

 

4 hours ago, David Burgess said:

That works OK for making most of a top or back outline from either the form or the rib assembly, except that the corners are a huge exception. The rib corner shape needs to take into account the desired plate outline. Maintaining equal edge spacing between the outline of the top and back doesn't work in the corners, unless one wants to produce exceptionally long corners. 

Is there a resource you can point to for getting the corner shape right? I'd obviously like to avoid doing what I've done a second time.

[Matthew_Graesch]

I have the same type of template set that Jay posted above (the metal ones), and I found out the hard way that the rib template must surely be the outer surface of the ribs, at least for the 1735 Plowden model I got.   I made a mold and corner blocks using the rib template as-is, and then cut my top and back outline using the rib assembly I had made from the template.....then found out that the resulting instrument would not fit into any of the five violin cases I own because it was too wide by a few mm.  Definitely best to verify with actual measurements off a poster or the internet.

[David Alex T.]

On 3/19/2024 at 2:13 AM, nycklarna said:

The main reason I am posting now is that I am considering starting a second set of ribs while the experience of the first set is still fresh, and if this was a mistake on my part, I'd like to learn how to avoid making it again.

you need to take measurement of corner distance on the top template and check and adjust your blocks with this distance minus the overhang and the rib thickness, before gluing the ribs. Double check and adjust when C ribs are glued.

[HoGo]

I see that many beginners make the mistake of letting the center bout rib protrude very far past the block and then pinch the upper/lower bout rib to it like old German violins ending with mile long point. Often the "form" template is just derived from inside of the purfling abut the corners must be checked separately from rest of body as the rib points often don't follow the purfling line especially on the later Gesu models.

If you lay and clamp the two forms on each other like Jay Higgs above and put two small pieces of wood (popsicle or tiny cutoff pieces from rib material) to form correctly overlapping joint on the inner tempate, you'll immediately see if the plate outline sits well on the "ribs".

[FiddleMkr]

My two cents (and this comes from the knowledge of Davide Sora) - get the corners right first, then work from there. 
        I would add to that- the outlines of one violin or the other are pretty close, so whichever you choose is ok, and as you said 351mm (350-354) long.
         I would do as you suggested. Chose a shape you like and subtract 2.5mm overhang then 1-1.5 more for the rib thickness, and that is your mold. Pick out a corner shape that you like for the top and back and derive your mold dimensions from there. This is one of the fun areas, where you get to be creative, and express yourself a little, so have fun at it. 

[nycklarna]

27 minutes ago, FiddleMkr said:

get the corners right first

What are some considerations or perhaps rules I could follow to help ensure that I am able to get the corners right? Intuition tells me that too short would look just as silly as too long, and I'd like to avoid both.

[HoGo]

Read the Hargrave articles. There is plenty good info on this.

You can draw them on paper, draw the outline and then the mould and add rib thickness (washer) and have a close look how the plate corners are superimposed over the rim. Draw exactly where each rib piece will meet the other and where you will trim the lower/upper bout rib piece. DG sometimes left them a bit protruding so his corners were supported, other times he left long part of corners unsupported.

[nycklarna]

I'm not familiar with the Hargrave articles. Perhaps you have a link or could point me in the right direction? Thanks!

[FiddleMkr]

40 minutes ago, nycklarna said:

What are some considerations or perhaps rules I could follow to help ensure that I am able to get the corners right? Intuition tells me that too short would look just as silly as too long, and I'd like to avoid both.

I don’t know if there are rules on corners. To me, the rule is: if it looks right to me, then it is right. 
       I guess I could get a little more specific. To me, the Stradivari Betts has corners that are too long. And the Stradivari Titian has corners that border on being too stubby. But, that is just what I think. As I said before, this is one of the few places that you have some freedom of expression. So make the corners’ shape to suit yourself. 

[Wood Butcher]

This is beyond daft, to suggest the corners only have a visual importance.

Improperly designed and considered corner shapes, can be a real hindrance to the playability of a violin.
Equally, corners which are encroaching significantly into the C bout, bring about their own set, of even more annoying problems.

I don’t want to have to change my technique, to work around what some daydreamer thought looked ‘nice’, or worry that I could catch my bow.

[nycklarna]

Okay, since this thread is here, perhaps there's somebody who would be willing to look at the rib mold outline I've come up with so far, roughly a del Desu, though I'm not sure which it's most like. If anybody sees any kinda obvious mistakes that I as a new person wouldn't have noticed making, I'd be grateful if you could point them out. And I'll gladly take any other input you may have.

(numbers are millimeters of course)

Thanks!

[Dennis J]

Looks ok to me. The last pattern I made measures 148 and 174. Distance between corners 89. I think those measurements are about right but how the inner form/mould is finished is more important especially the outer radii at the corners. And the plate outline overhang does not have to be exactly the same all the way round. So subtle changes there are possible.

[Davide Sora]

19 hours ago, nycklarna said:

Okay, since this thread is here, perhaps there's somebody who would be willing to look at the rib mold outline I've come up with so far, roughly a del Desu, though I'm not sure which it's most like. If anybody sees any kinda obvious mistakes that I as a new person wouldn't have noticed making, I'd be grateful if you could point them out. And I'll gladly take any other input you may have.

(numbers are millimeters of course)

Thanks!

What are the widths of the form? Is it the inside outline of the ribs, excluding their thickness?

[nycklarna]

1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

What are the widths of the form? Is it the inside outline of the ribs, excluding their thickness?

Thanks for the reply! I've added a few more measurements in this version which I hope cover everything. This will be the inside edge of the ribs/outside edge of the mold, so yes, excluding rib thickness. I am also aware that this is probably a fairly large C-bout spacing, but it is not very far off some of the CT scans I had among my references, so I think it's probably not too much.

 

2 hours ago, Dennis J said:

Looks ok to me. The last pattern I made measures 148 and 174.

Thanks! It sounds like I've got a slightly wide upper bout but within the general range compared with those numbers.

 

 

Edited April 2 by nycklarna
Missed a reply the first time

[Dennis J]

Well, nyclarna, I like the look of your pattern more than the one I have made.  I don't think your upper bout is too wide, I've always felt mine is a little narrow. My bouts measure 158 and 198, length 347. My corners are a little wider and longer than yours but I was aware of that and shaped the corner blocks a bit inside the form pattern. I used the 4-circles method to design mine. But, as I say, for some reason yours looks really nice.

The rib assembly I've made also looks a bit narrow for the upper bout but I haven't trimmed the plate overhangs so I'm not sure how it will look. Designing form templates can be complicated by all sorts of considerations. I'm not sure I've got it sorted out yet.

[Davide Sora]

7 hours ago, nycklarna said:

Thanks for the reply! I've added a few more measurements in this version which I hope cover everything. This will be the inside edge of the ribs/outside edge of the mold, so yes, excluding rib thickness. I am also aware that this is probably a fairly large C-bout spacing, but it is not very far off some of the CT scans I had among my references, so I think it's probably not too much.

They seem good to me, maybe a little narrow for my taste, but it doesn't matter. I don't know if they correspond exactly to those of Kreisler, but that doesn't matter either, if you want to work in Del Gesù's style you should immerse yourself at least a little in his "inaccuracy".

[HoGo]

Teh numbers match my Plowden drawing almost exactly except the distance between points which is 93 and 93.4 on mine and total length is shorter - closer to 344. Kreisler is about 2-3 mm longer so that could mowork as mould for that...