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Singular purfling ( Help ID req )


lFred

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Hi folks,

I have this violin with wide purling, wide white extra thin black, made out a material I can not identify..

If you ever  came across something like this on a violin I'll would be interested by your experience.

perfwebbbfee7c697692f84.thumb.jpeg.89cbc13613dab1a17b013722ddee6210.jpeg

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Thank you , (yes paper is an usual suspect when ultra fine black are found)

but  I'm not sure we can id the material beyond speculation, especially  with he varnish over the white part does not let appear figure so we don't see much .. :/

I should rephrase my question  : did you comme a violin with a similar purling ?

 

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20 minutes ago, lFred said:

Thank you , (yes paper is an usual suspect when ultra fine black are found)

but  I'm not sure we can id the material beyond speculation, especially  with he varnish over the white part does not let appear figure so we don't see much .. :/

I should rephrase my question  : did you comme a violin with a similar purling ?

 

Violins with paper purfling are rare, and I guess you already know on which violins it is found. Have you taken your violin to an expert appraiser?

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Extremely thin dark purfling stripes can be found at several origins in my experience, some late 19th or 20th century Saxon/Czech or Mirecourt, too. Examining these more closely I found it always made of very fine planed wood, though it's also possible that other materials were used occasionally.

One associates often Naples/Gagliano family with this, but there are different opinions from what this purfling was made. Jeffrey Holmes made some remarks about it, can't find the thread actually. So for telling something in particular about the violin in question it would be necessary to see much more of it than a small part of the bottom C bout.;)

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Thank you all ,
To my knowledge some of the Gagliano used paper or paper like material , but  as far as I have seen  it usually does not really look similar to this one: the white is not as wide and the works is different (I'm talking evenness and corner work).
There are also maker from Milano  but here again as far as I've seen while the material might have been similar , purling   looks different to me



btw It's a tricky violin, that do not speak to many, and fail to give result by dendrochronology.



 



 

 

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

Extremely thin dark purfling stripes can be found at several origins in my experience, some late 19th or 20th century Saxon/Czech or Mirecourt, too. Examining these more closely I found it always made of very fine planed wood, though it's also possible that other materials were used occasionally.

One associates often Naples/Gagliano family with this, but there are different opinions from what this purfling was made. Jeffrey Holmes made some remarks about it, can't find the thread actually. So for telling something in particular about the violin in question it would be necessary to see much more of it than a small part of the bottom C bout.;)

In 2006 @Jeffrey Holmes thought it was "wine paper" that was used, whether he has changed his opinion since then would be interesting to find out.

 

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26 minutes ago, Delabo said:

In 2006 @Jeffrey Holmes thought it was "wine paper" that was used, whether he has changed his opinion since then would be interesting to find out.

 

I believe Chris Reuning mentioned it might have been corn husk in that thread.  Certainly possible. Whatever is is (paper/husk) it's fibrous and seems to have held the dye relatively well.

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1 hour ago, lFred said:

I' would be interested to see some example of those !

I'm usually not taking photos of this type of violin, but here is a piece "cheap and nasty" which I have for spare purfling, and the corner of an early 19th Hamm. Not saying that these are the same as your's.

Maybe I'll find more and better if I would have the time to search longer within my photos.

IMG_9771.jpg

hamm corner.JPG

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50 minutes ago, Delabo said:

In 2006 @Jeffrey Holmes thought it was "wine paper" that was used, whether he has changed his opinion since then would be interesting to find out.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

I believe Chris Reuning mentioned it might have been corn husk in that thread.  Certainly possible. Whatever is is (paper/husk) it's fibrous and seems to have held the dye relatively well.

Thanks, that was it.:)

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4 hours ago, Blank face said:

I'm usually not taking photos of this type of violin, but here is a piece "cheap and nasty" which I have for spare purfling, and the corner of an early 19th Hamm. Not saying that these are the same as your's.

Maybe I'll find more and better if I would have the time to search longer within my photos.

 

Thank you I like your samples!

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Just now, David Burgess said:

Sure, but how much work is it scraping strips of parchment down to a uniform thickness, versus planing strips of wood to a uniform thickness?

Parchment is hard enough to make a uniform thickness using a sharp scraper. And it doesn’t need to be precise to 0.01mm.

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34 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Parchment is hard enough to make a uniform thickness using a sharp scraper.

LOL, I wasn't claiming that parchment isn't hard, nor that thicknessing can't be done. However, a plane is much better and faster at taking flat wood strips down to a uniform thickness, than a scraper is at taking parchment down to a uniform thickness.
And with sufficient motive force, strips of wood of various (but consistent) thicknesses can be produced with a single plane stroke.

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5 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

LOL, I wasn't claiming that parchment isn't hard, nor that thicknessing can't be done. However, a plane is much better and faster at taking flat wood strips down to a uniform thickness, than a scraper is at taking parchment down to a uniform thickness.
And with sufficient motive force, strips of wood of various (but consistent) thicknesses can be done with a single plane stroke.

Sure.

But if you get very thin the plane can tear the wood apart. Better is to make shavings with a plane, or not?

Doesn’t take so much time to scrape an entire parchment sheet to a desired thickness. You need a very sharp scraper, that’s all.

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3 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

But if you get very thin the plane can tear the wood apart. Better is to make shavings with a plane, or not?

Perhaps you are thinking that the strip of wood being thicknessed is on the underside of the plane, rather than coming out the top of the plane? :)

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Here are a couple picture of the rest of the fiddle (inside and outside).. If you are interested.
First thing you'll notice is a lot of faking going on (of rather debatable taste imo),
Then there are a lot of repair that look genuine and old, a big contrast with the outside faking that  raise the question was this outside faking made "later" by a 3rd party ?

I was running the hypothesis of a 1860-1920 violin made in copy and believed it could be a British instrument, but my esteemed British colleagues are not convinced.
As far as Germany goes  esteemed colleagues from Germany did not think so either. 
 Dendrochronology was non conclusive

 

A7R03819-web2efe8d6a00291a38


https://expert.ruederome.com/album/Testore-Copy.OCPS

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I agree that there seems to be a lot of later tarting up going on, but maybe some of the antiquing was there from the start. The teethed plane marks inside are also pointing towards an 19th century date. Definitely made with a mould, assymetrical blocks longer in the outer bouts, so it could be a product of the KuK/Austro-Hungarian region. The shape of the inserted saddle reminds me of some Prague instruments. Maybe JacobSaunders has seen something similar?

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