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Interesting "Dutch" fiddle?


Lex_Luthier

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I have been researching a lot of information about Dutch violin makers of the 18th century, and this forum has been a great resource of valuable information. I have a violin that has provoked such research and has got me aquatinted with Dutch school violin making. so far i have ordered one out of print book, "Makers of the lowlands" , and have been looking though the Dutch makers list on the dutch violin makers page. This fiddle is a far cry from Hendrik however it has some influence. Anyone care to take a stab at this one? printed Label reads "Rep AMSTERDAM 17.." Perfling is bold and it appears the linings are let into the corner blocks, All spruce-ish. Dendro test says mid 18th c

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Look at this site

Cant see anything like yours, Dutch violins are totally under researched and there is not an awful lot of info about the well known makers ,never mind others . I doubt the book you`ve ordered will be of any use.The later book 400 years of violinmaking in netherlands  is also next to useless with most of it featuring contempory Dutch makers .

https://www.muziekinstrumentenfonds.nl/collectie?instrumentType=Violen&country=Nederland&limit=12

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The only violin in Moller's "Violin Makers of the Low Countries" that resembles it in any way is one by Erhard Amman, in The Hague, 1749. There are remarkable similarities, and one or two rather serious differences (the size and placement of the f-holes, especially). It does have almost exactly that swan-neck head that @fiddlecollector commented on, the odd outline, and closely-related f-holes. Without a second example I wouldn't be able to say anything for certain, but there is probably someone in the biz who'd say "Oh, sure, that's one of those." If enough silver crossed their palm. Other than that one, there's nothing else in the book that comes even close.

I hope you didn't go shell out $350 for the book just for this!

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I agree there are some similarities but the f-holes are very different. 

I’m not sure that Flemish violins are under researched - the first time I went to see Jan Strick (with a Kleynman) he showed me several volumes of an amzing Dutch publication ( some kind of appraiser’s guide) which was pretty exhaustive. I’ve not seen it before or since …

If the dendro and the construction method confirm it, I would show the photos to Jan and to Andreas Post in Amsterdam.

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The fs are actually very much the same in outline and details, just different sized and in a different tilt, but if you look at the others in the book, those are both quite different and more often at quite a different vertical location on the top.

Within what I've seen makers do (they're closer than, say, early and late Strad or Del Gesu!), I'm not throwing the idea out.

Agree that good Dutch shops are the place to go for the best analysis.

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At least the Amman f-holes are more or less level with each other! I do appreciate the similarities but this is a much clumsier maker.

The spine of the scroll shows similar signs of either ineptitude or heavy drinking … maybe both.

But it’s a charming fiddle for all that.

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In case people aren't getting it. I've superimposed on on the other. The same template could easily be used on either, except for the around the ends. The main difference is the eyes and their effect on the wings, mostly at the top. What struck me as being particularly unusual (aside from the obvious outline match of an unusual outline) was the very horizontal cut of the ends of the wings. In most makers it's usually more or less balanced on either side of the top or bottom point, and that's usually maker-specific.

But again, I'm not prepared to say it's the same maker; only that there appears to be some influence between the two. 

 

AmmanF.png

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

I agree there are some similarities but the f-holes are very different. 

I’m not sure that Flemish violins are under researched - the first time I went to see Jan Strick (with a Kleynman) he showed me several volumes of an amzing Dutch publication ( some kind of appraiser’s guide) which was pretty exhaustive. I’ve not seen it before or since …

If the dendro and the construction method confirm it, I would show the photos to Jan and to Andreas Post in Amsterdam.

Id love to know what this several volume publication is???

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Could this have been the 1999 NGV publication referenced in the below website?

https://hendrikjacobs.nl

So far, three publications have been published about the Dutch builders in the 17th and 18th centuries: in 1931 (Dirk Balfoort), 1955 (Max Möller) and in 1999 (NGV). Unfortunately, since 1931, with the apin of a series of archival documents discovered, little new information has been added about these instruments and its builders. Despite the progress that has been made, there is still a wealth of information about these instruments waiting to be discovered and studied.
The Hendrik Jacobs Foundation was therefore established to facilitate, scale up and thus accelerate research into the history of Dutch string instruments and their builders from the 17th and 18th centuries.”

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16 hours ago, martin swan said:

 

If the violin was Low Countries mid 18th century that should show up on the dendro.

 

Just to correct, wood used in the Low Countries, between about 1650 and 1720 is generally super specific, and for that period, dendro cross-matching can be extremely useful, as many Dutch have been re-labelled, and sold as Italians. 

After 1720, the wood looses all specificity as far as I can gather, so if it is is mid-18th century Dutch, dendro may found a date for the wood and possible wood provenance, but not much else.  To be honest, the wood choice on that front doesn't look great, so I am unsure a test would even give a date.

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10 hours ago, WalterOB said:

Could this have been the 1999 NGV publication referenced in the below website?

https://hendrikjacobs.nl

So far, three publications have been published about the Dutch builders in the 17th and 18th centuries: in 1931 (Dirk Balfoort), 1955 (Max Möller) and in 1999 (NGV). Unfortunately, since 1931, with the apin of a series of archival documents discovered, little new information has been added about these instruments and its builders. Despite the progress that has been made, there is still a wealth of information about these instruments waiting to be discovered and studied.
The Hendrik Jacobs Foundation was therefore established to facilitate, scale up and thus accelerate research into the history of Dutch string instruments and their builders from the 17th and 18th centuries.”

The website was set up  through the National Musical instrument Foundation  as a project .Hubert de Launay is involved. But this was what i was refering to about lack of research, its only seems to have been in the last few years that some effort appears to have been  made .

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18 hours ago, martin swan said:

I agree there are some similarities but the f-holes are very different. 

I’m not sure that Flemish violins are under researched - the first time I went to see Jan Strick (with a Kleynman) he showed me several volumes of an amzing Dutch publication ( some kind of appraiser’s guide) which was pretty exhaustive. I’ve not seen it before or since …

If the dendro and the construction method confirm it, I would show the photos to Jan and to Andreas Post in Amsterdam.

The Entente published in 1995 a résumé of the lecture about the Amsterdam makers 17th and 18th century but there is nothing like this violin.

Serge Stamm knows a lot about this school too.

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I would like to know what kind of wood was used for the bottom, and if scroll and ribs are made from the same.

The questions about the construction of the ribs, if there are channels in the back for them, are still unanswered, though this could give some clue. At least lininigs being mortised into corner blocks aren't an old Dutch construction method. Also a mid 1700s dendro doesn't prove that the violin really was made during this period. To be clear, it must have been very, very well preserved (or extraordinary well restored) for 250 years or more of age. Also the photos are showing different colors and shadings of the varnish - which is more real?

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On 1/21/2024 at 11:51 AM, martin swan said:

This is quite a rough and ready fiddle - not sure you will get a name.

If the violin was Low Countries mid 18th century that should show up on the dendro.

Are the ribs let into a channel on the back?

Rough indeed. It does not appear ribs are let into a channel, but I’m not quite sure I know what you mean. Visually in my head I’m understand this as a channel “routed” out on the inside back plate in a way that it would be impossible to have an open seam? I’ve heard of the ribs being inset into the sides of the neck on the “neck through” joints,.. forgive me if this confusing. I’m attaching a pic of the ribs and back plate. 

IMG_8805.dng

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