Fractional violin guidance

[TZEENTCHAU]

Hi,

My apologies if this is readily available with a quick search, but I am in a region with very limited search capability (for those who only speak English -google engine wont work here). 

How hard is it to make a decent sounding fractional violin relative to a full size (given templates are not readily available)? I am planning on making a half size.  I do have a cheap half size I can get rough guidance from, but in terms of graduations do the belly and back stay similar? Is the sound post the same or smaller? Are the f holes relatively larger (to accommodate getting the sound post in)? Is the leap in skill level such that I shouldn't bother until I downpat my skills on a full size. Are there any other items that don't scale linearly down relative to length I should be aware of?

The country I am in has plenty of cheap, decent violins in the required size but my current reigning authority figure refuses to approve the budgetary submission stating i should just make the thing -not realising our son will soon need one of the appropriate level (I started at a later age than my son, so while I kept my half size it isn't at the level he needs). 

BTW I would normally support buying local, but dislike paying the Australia tax (which can result in instrument usually increasing in price found elsewhere by a factor between 2 and 5).

[David Stiles]

6 minutes ago, TZEENTCHAU said:

BTW I would normally support buying local, but dislike paying the Australia tax (which can result in instrument usually increasing in price found elsewhere by a factor between 2 and 5).

I understand that Australia has 5% import Duty + 10% gst and this is only applied for imports over $1000.   Hardly a "factor between 2 & 5".

If you don't want to pay the middlemen then buy direct from Aliexpress and you probably won't pay any tax.  But you won't get the support of your local retailer when you need it.  

[TZEENTCHAU]

5 minutes ago, David Stiles said:

I understand that Australia has 5% import Duty + 10% gst and this is only applied for imports over $1000.   Hardly a "factor between 2 & 5".

If you don't want to pay the middlemen then buy direct from Aliexpress and you probably won't pay any tax.  But you won't get the support of your local retailer when you need it.  

It is not an official tax, rather an amount Australians pay which far exceeds any reasonable postage and customer service- (I have found there is rarely support other than that enforced by acc consumer, replacement for dead on arrival etc). The amount saved buying cheap in bulk offshore is often the better deal than the local support. I could go into this in detail (though is probably better understood if you traveled to oz and see for yourself), but am more focused on the earlier part of trying to work out the ability to quickly improve (noting I am not Don and unlikely to have anything vsa ready by no 4, let alone win it) or if there is any great skill increases required to make a fractional size. 

[uncle duke]

Let's see your last violin build, if possible.

The important issue here is to not let your child lose faith in his parent{s} because of something that was supposed to be made to perform well by you turned out to be just merely another toy in the toy box.

How about just renting a good one?

[TZEENTCHAU]

Hi duke,

I only have two pictures (it's the orange one) with me. Used the messiah strad template, with the belly/back arching closer to a strainer. No 2 works quite well (outperforms my intermediate violin, in sound and playability, but not as good as my prof luthier made ones) it's just not refined.

Fortunately for me, both my wife and I have a decent enough income so if necessary we can afford a decent half size, however we are very frugal. I agree faith is an issue (I made it past all grades but the last, but my wife never learnt and doesn't appreciate the need for a better violin as the grade goes up) - i am fortunate my son is still motivated. 

[lvlagneto]

Be careful when using a brush to support an instrument (specific photo pasted below).  Painted handles are often made of cheap wood (even on "high end" brushes).  Once one of the handles snaps at the collar, you'll never do it again.   



I'm not a maker, but looking at your scroll, the pegbox looks heavy (could be image distortion).  If everything else is thick/technically to spec, you'll be in the muted toy realm vs playable instrument - which is why you're asking for more specs!  I can give you weight and basic measurements of my daughter's violin, but it's a bit of an oddity.

As a parent dealing with maintaining children's instruments, this is also about frustration factor, and what you are willing to sign up for. - My daughter uses a very light 1/2 size violin, German, questionably cheeked pegbox, basically ready to pop, but her teacher loves the sound.

"[We] have a decent enough income so if necessary we can afford a decent half size, however we are very frugal."  

If you are frugal... you already have a 1/2 size violin!  Tweak that one.  No tax. 

Children grow quickly, so your massive effort to make a new instrument will be a blip in their existence/musical journey.  I suggest repairing an existing violin, or renting.  There are tons of fractional instruments that need a player.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

I know of a violin shop that imports large quantities of Chinese student instruments.  They take all the thick tops off and regraduate them to make them sound better. 

I estimate a 1/2 size violin should have its top about 2.1mm thick if it is made with typical spruce wood.

[baroquecello]

Fractional size violins are often just that: made smaller in all dimensions. I'm responsible for a fleet of rental instruments (as the contact person between user and lutier, I 'm not a lutier ), and we've got one strange 1/4 violin, that has a very slender body, but comparatively large f holes that are  comparatively far apart, and a 4/4 size bridge. This is the best sounding quarter size violin we have. So I believe just downsizing is acoustically not the best solution, but that it is best to downsize only those aspects needed for ergonomic reasons.

[lvlagneto]

7 minutes ago, baroquecello said:

... best to downsize only those aspects needed for ergonomic reasons.

Funny that you mention ergonomics.  When it comes to bridge cutting, are people generally over-curving bridges to make individual string play 'easier' for students?  I was told this in the past, did it, and found that doing so was counterproductive.  

[uncle duke]

If your child is 4-5 years old then go ahead and make an inner mold from 13mm plywood or glue two 6mm pieces together.

i scaled a 1/4 sized fiddle down from 4/4.  Make the scroll look real good- hard to do with my tools.

[TZEENTCHAU]

50 minutes ago, iburkard said:

Be careful when using a brush to support an instrument (specific photo pasted below).  Painted handles are often made of cheap wood (even on "high end" brushes).  Once one of the handles snaps at the collar, you'll never do it again.   



I'm not a maker, but looking at your scroll, the pegbox looks heavy (could be image distortion).  If everything else is thick/technically to spec, you'll be in the muted toy realm vs playable instrument - which is why you're asking for more specs!  I can give you weight and basic measurements of my daughter's violin, but it's a bit of an oddity.

As a parent dealing with maintaining children's instruments, this is also about frustration factor, and what you are willing to sign up for. - My daughter uses a very light 1/2 size violin, German, questionably cheeked pegbox, basically ready to pop, but her teacher loves the sound.

"[We] have a decent enough income so if necessary we can afford a decent half size, however we are very frugal."  

If you are frugal... you already have a 1/2 size violin!  Tweak that one.  No tax. 

Children grow quickly, so your massive effort to make a new instrument will be a blip in their existence/musical journey.  I suggest repairing an existing violin, or renting.  There are tons of fractional instruments that need a player.

The pegbox is too thick, but better this time round (something I'm focusing on, along with purfling next time around). My thicknessing is 2.5-3.5 (thicker closer to centre/spine), using the template thcknesses more as ratios and aiming for a specific weight (as below). Surprisingly no 2 is quite loud -as loud as my prof violins (my issue is nasalness on the d and a string- I have moved the soundpost around quite a bit and was eventually able to get a good sound on g and e, that and just not having the ideal complexity of sound).

Thanks marty for the thickness. I am using typical, albeit basic quality, spruce (german). In terms of weight (im targetting 72 for the top, with bass bar and f holes and 110-120 for the back), should I assume the new targets will be the proportion of the surface areas? (I'm hoping to set up a better tuning method this year- should I get time).

I should point out another issue in Australia aside from price is quality. In a previous post of mine, Master Sora questioned why I was having difficulty with a simple woodworking task (filing the ridge perfectly flat). Some imported European made files later and it worked as per his videos. Similar issues with gouges, knives etc (I may be skint but will pay for quality). 

Btw The paint brush did break (fortunately whilst I was holding the instrument). 

My violin teachers father did the regrad thing (my 1/2 size is a regraduated lark) and had reasonable success (mine being the worst example as it was all i could afford at the time that would meet my requirements). 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

Attached is a copy of the May 2001 CAS Journal which contains a reprint of an old 1979 article "Project Tiny-an Overview" that describes how to make fractional size violins sound better.

Since then the nomenclature for the air resonance mode "AR" has to changed to the present "AO" mode.  And the "wood resonance, WR" mode is now called a body mode "B1"- or "B1+".

Hope this helps.

 

CAS May 2001.pdf

[TZEENTCHAU]

Thank you very much. 

[LCF]

I have been through the 1/8 - 1/4 - 1/2 - 3/4 - 4/4 sized violin progression about five times now with my own children and relatives and now with the youngest grandchildren.   Keeping the smaller ones in good shape is challenging wrt bows, strings and bridges.

To keep the fleet up to strength I recently bought Chinese 1/4 and 1/2 sized instruments in the white so I can have the fun of reworking them and testing some varnish while neatly sidestepping the issue of building tiny fiddles. It is a cheaper option depending on how you account for your time.

[TZEENTCHAU]

That sounds like a good idea