Acceptable angle for nut flare

[Wood Butcher]

I just saw a new violin, made by a respected maker, which was commissioned for the daughter of a colleague.
The violin itself, seems quite promising, but feels stiff and not very compliant, so far. That aside, one aspect which has caught my attention, is the angle at which the sides of the nut flare out from the fingerboard to the pegbox.

The scroll is very much wider than the fingerboard, so it seems the only way it can be done, but to me, the angles seem extreme. On the majority of violins, the nut is either inline with the fingerboard, or flares out just a little. I was not able to measure it but looked somewhere around 20°.
Is this acceptable, or should it be less?

[Brad Dorsey]

I think you are asking about what I would call the ends of the nut -  not the sides.  20 degrees does seem like a lot of nut flare, but if the peg box flares that much from the end of the fingerboard, I think the flare of the nut has to be the same.  What is the width of the fingerboard at the nut?

[jacobsaunders]

54 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

I just saw a new violin, made by a respected maker, which was commissioned for the daughter of a colleague.
The violin itself, seems quite promising, but feels stiff and not very compliant, so far. That aside, one aspect which has caught my attention, is the angle at which the sides of the nut flare out from the fingerboard to the pegbox.

The scroll is very much wider than the fingerboard, so it seems the only way it can be done, but to me, the angles seem extreme. On the majority of violins, the nut is either inline with the fingerboard, or flares out just a little. I was not able to measure it but looked somewhere around 20°.
Is this acceptable, or should it be less?

sounds to me as if the maker got himself into deep water by making the pegbox to wide, a problem that one usually sees only with violas

[David Burgess]

If one uses original-Stradivari pegbox widths, and a modern fingerboard width of 24-24.5 ish at the pegbox end, some flaring is unavoidable, with the flaring in the upper nut, the beginning of the pegbox, or some combination of both.

Does the flaring at the nut interfere with your playing, or is your concern more along the lines of whether it is "correct" or not?

What is the width of the pegbox at the widest part of the top?

[Don Noon]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

some flaring is unavoidable, with the flaring in the upper nut, the beginning of the pegbox, or some combination of both.

Flaring can be avoided if you really want to.  This is a viola, but it can also be done this way on a violin.

[Davide Sora]

4 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

I just saw a new violin, made by a respected maker, which was commissioned for the daughter of a colleague.
The violin itself, seems quite promising, but feels stiff and not very compliant, so far. That aside, one aspect which has caught my attention, is the angle at which the sides of the nut flare out from the fingerboard to the pegbox.

The scroll is very much wider than the fingerboard, so it seems the only way it can be done, but to me, the angles seem extreme. On the majority of violins, the nut is either inline with the fingerboard, or flares out just a little. I was not able to measure it but looked somewhere around 20°.
Is this acceptable, or should it be less?

 

2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Does the flaring at the nut interfere with your playing, or is your concern more along the lines of whether it is "correct" or not?

Would it be possible to see some images? It would be easier to get an idea. However, David got the crucial point, if he doesn't cause problems it's just an aesthetic decision, so up to the maker, if it annoys in some way it's something that needs to be corrected

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

Flaring can be avoided if you really want to.  This is a viola, but it can also be done this way on a violin.

From the photo, I can't tell exactly what you've got going on there. Is the pegbox width at the top unusually narrow? I so, having the front of the pegbox that much narrower than the back, or the whole thing that much narrower would be aesthetically unacceptable to me, unless it were an attempt to copy some famous maker who originally made really skinny pegboxes.

[lvlagneto]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

From the photo, I can't tell exactly what you've got going on there. 

Looks like... small bumper, big car.

[Don Noon]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

From the photo, I can't tell exactly what you've got going on there. 

I believe you might have seen this at VSA, and I think you commented to me about it.  Or it might have been someone else.  Unfortunately, I don't have anything current to take clearer photos of.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

6 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

I just saw a new violin, made by a respected maker, which was commissioned for the daughter of a colleague.
The violin itself, seems quite promising, but feels stiff and not very compliant, so far. That aside, one aspect which has caught my attention, is the angle at which the sides of the nut flare out from the fingerboard to the pegbox.

The scroll is very much wider than the fingerboard, so it seems the only way it can be done, but to me, the angles seem extreme. On the majority of violins, the nut is either inline with the fingerboard, or flares out just a little. I was not able to measure it but looked somewhere around 20°.
Is this acceptable, or should it be less?

It's always the functionality that matters. The player shouldn't feel the protruding nut sides on the index finger. If he does, then it's wrong. If not, it's good.

[David Burgess]

36 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

I believe you might have seen this at VSA, and I think you commented to me about it.  Or it might have been someone else. 

OK, you have placed all of your flare at the pegbox, with none at the nut. Some others try to do most or all of the flare at the nut. I sort of combine the flaring between the two, to make the transitions smoother and less notchy than what you have pictured.  Kind of a judgement or aesthetic call, as long as one approach or the other doesn't interfere too much with playing.

[Nick Allen]

16 hours ago, David Burgess said:

If one uses original-Stradivari pegbox widths, and a modern fingerboard width of 24-24.5 ish at the pegbox end, some flaring is unavoidable, with the flaring in the upper nut, the beginning of the pegbox, or some combination of both.

Does the flaring at the nut interfere with your playing, or is your concern more along the lines of whether it is "correct" or not?

What is the width of the pegbox at the widest part of the top?

24.5 seems unwieldy in its width. 

I always considered the norm to be under 24. Closer to 23.8/23.75. 

 

 

[Nick Allen]

On instruments with heavily flared nut platforms, I just keep with the same theme of the upper fingerboard chamfer. 

But, one needs to continue the chamfer a little farther along the side "quarter circle" of the nut, and not just trough it. This eliminates any potential flaring of the profile throughout the height of the nut, and effectively reduces its width to something normal at the upper 3rd of the nut, which is where the player will interact the most with their 1st finger knuckle directly. If this profile blends nicely with the upper profile (granted that it too is good), then there should still be a nice feeling through that. 

[Wood Butcher]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:14 PM, Davide Sora said:

 

Would it be possible to see some images? It would be easier to get an idea. However, David got the crucial point, if he doesn't cause problems it's just an aesthetic decision, so up to the maker, if it annoys in some way it's something that needs to be corrected

It may be an aesthetic decision, as you say. Just immediately struck me as unusual or exaggerated. The woodwork was all well finished, just seemed bizarrely wide. I will try to get a picture if I am back there, before the young lady leaves for college.

On 12/29/2023 at 5:38 PM, Torbjörn Zethelius said:

It's always the functionality that matters. The player shouldn't feel the protruding nut sides on the index finger. If he does, then it's wrong. If not, it's good.

You cannot feel the nut per se, but you can feel the extra width there with the index finger. The maker makes a big deal about their own personal model, so I guess it is just how they like to do it.