Did cremona really use super "stiff" wood?

[Ratcliffiddles]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:50 AM, M Alpert said:

Would you care to elaborate, from which makers or workshops was found the same wood as in the Messiah? This is most interesting...

 

I did a video a few years back trying exposing the then cross-matches and how these were identified. 

Since then, a few (I think 3) further instruments have been identified to be from the same tree.

The last one was with a Cremonese violin attributed to Carlo Rugeri. The wood on one half of this latest one turned out to be one of, if not the closest to the wood on the Messiah.  The wood on this violin also has 20 more rings at the end, compared to that of the Messiah, which has a latest ring of 1686, whereas the wood on the Rugeri reaches 1706.  What was fascinating (to me, at least) is that the other instruments all had dendrochronological dates close to that of the Messiah. The Rugeri was therefore the only example which had kept this last portion of rings.  There was actually a very good reason why these rings were removed, and naturally, this was only visible on the Rugeri:  It consists of a very "odd" looking ring at 1700/1701,   significantly wider than the surrounding ones and showing odd looking morphology. Everybody else removed the last portion of rings except Rugeri! 

With regards to wood transport, there is a lot of info about fluvial transportation methods in northern Italy. Over 300.000 logs about 4 meters long were floated down (menada) every year towards some of the main waterways such as the Piave, down to the sawmills,  where they were squared up and assembled into rafts (Zattere). These were often linked to each other, some reaching up to 35 metres in length. Many made their way to Venice (or other places) with a crew, but also animals, and passengers ( not for the faint hearted at times!), transporting goods from the mountains. The zattere were eventually dismantled and the wood traded. It is thought that 10 million trees are embedded into the lagoon as foundations to support Venice!  The tonewood dealer ( if there was such a trade in Italy, as certainly none specifically recorded as such have been found so far) could have selected the timber at the sawmill, or may have owned trees further up the chain. It really is speculation but yes, the selected wood could have been cut and billets split from sections of the log at/near the sawmill, and later transported by rafts to a place where the dealer would collect its share of the goods. 

There is museum of the Zattieri of the Piave in Longarone near Belluno which has much more information.

And also Katia Occhi's book. Boschi e mercanti: Traffici di legname tra la contea di Tirolo e la Repubblica di Venezia (secoli XVI–XVII), which gives a true insight into all aspects of the wood trade.  For years now, she has done extensive research, but despite digging into all related archives, has never (yet!) found any reference to wood for musical instruments.   

 

[M Alpert]

Thank you! Fascinating post both about the "Rugeri" and the wood translation, hats off and thanks for sharing!!

[Salve Håkedal]

I'm curious about the picture above. It looks like endwood, not the surface of a fiddle table! Am I wrong?

[HoGo]

I guess the dark line on the right is centerjoint.

[Ratcliffiddles]

4 hours ago, Salve Håkedal said:

I'm curious about the picture above. It looks like endwood, not the surface of a fiddle table! Am I wrong?

It is the varnished surface, the picture has been squashed a bit.

1 hour ago, HoGo said:

I guess the dark line on the right is centerjoint.

Correct

[Andreas Preuss]

11 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

I did a video a few years back trying exposing the then cross-matches and how these were identified. 

Since then, a few (I think 3) further instruments have been identified to be from the same tree.

The last one was with a Cremonese violin attributed to Carlo Rugeri. The wood on one half of this latest one turned out to be one of, if not the closest to the wood on the Messiah.  The wood on this violin also has 20 more rings at the end, compared to that of the Messiah, which has a latest ring of 1686, whereas the wood on the Rugeri reaches 1706.  What was fascinating (to me, at least) is that the other instruments all had dendrochronological dates close to that of the Messiah. The Rugeri was therefore the only example which had kept this last portion of rings.  There was actually a very good reason why these rings were removed, and naturally, this was only visible on the Rugeri:  It consists of a very "odd" looking ring at 1700/1701,  (see below) significantly wider than the surrounding ones and showing odd looking morphology. Everybody else removed the last portion of rings except Rugeri! 

With regards to wood transport, there is a lot of info about fluvial transportation methods in northern Italy. Over 300.000 logs about 4 meters long were floated down (menada) every year towards some of the main waterways such as the Piave, down to the sawmills,  where they were squared up and assembled into rafts (Zattere). These were often linked to each other, some reaching up to 35 metres in length. Many made their way to Venice (or other places) with a crew, but also animals, and passengers ( not for the faint hearted at times!), transporting goods from the mountains. The zattere were eventually dismantled and the wood traded. It is thought that 10 million trees are embedded into the lagoon as foundations to support Venice!  The tonewood dealer ( if there was such a trade in Italy, as certainly none specifically recorded as such have been found so far) could have selected the timber at the sawmill, or may have owned trees further up the chain. It really is speculation but yes, the selected wood could have been cut and billets split from sections of the log at/near the sawmill, and later transported by rafts to a place where the dealer would collect its share of the goods. 

There is museum of the Zattieri of the Piave in Longarone near Belluno which has much more information.

And also Katia Occhi's book. Boschi e mercanti: Traffici di legname tra la contea di Tirolo e la Repubblica di Venezia (secoli XVI–XVII), which gives a true insight into all aspects of the wood trade.  For years now, she has done extensive research, but despite digging into all related archives, has never (yet!) found any reference to wood for musical instruments.   

Thanks for sharing your detailed insights, Peter. Very interesting to know that trees made their ways to different workshops in different cities. If there were no specialized dealers, one could probably assume that wood traders just being in contact with violin makers would give them enough information to know what they want. Doesn’t sound too absurd to me. 
 

Given the fact that wood was back then one of the most used materials, the percentage used for musical instruments must have been dwindling slim. This might be also a reason why we can’t find specialized dealers.

[Ratcliffiddles]

33 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Thanks for sharing your detailed insights, Peter. Very interesting to know that trees made their ways to different workshops in different cities. If there were no specialized dealers, one could probably assume that wood traders just being in contact with violin makers would give them enough information to know what they want. Doesn’t sound too absurd to me. 
 

Given the fact that wood was back then one of the most used materials, the percentage used for musical instruments must have been dwindling slim. This might be also a reason why we can’t find specialized dealers.

Yes, wood from the same tree unquestionably reached different towns in Italy, and as far south as Naples, and occasionally in Spain for the maker's working at the Court (Contreras, Assensio & Ortega). 

It is frustrating not to find any reliable reference on "tonewood dealers" if indeed there were some ( or one!..).  The only vague insight, which I may have mentioned on previous occasions, is that letter in the Cremona museum, written by Paolo Stradivari, replying to GB Guadagnini, where he mentions a Signor Banchetti, who seemed to have supplied spruce tonewood ( I assume to the Stradivari shop) and was trading from Brescia, but who wasn't there any longer ( presumably deceased) by then ( 1772).

[David Burgess]

Traveling vendors are nothing new.

Some guy around that time figures out what sort of wood makers like. Finds a mill that has that sort of wood, and will cut it to his specs. Loads up his freight wagon and hits the road.

Why not? (aside from it lacking the kinkiness of some weirdo maker going through the forest at night during a full moon, tapping on trees)

[Nick Allen]

On 12/3/2023 at 9:32 PM, Don Noon said:

If there is a correlation between ring spacing and density in maple, it can't be very strong, according to the wood that I have.

I measured 3 of my lightest sets (.51 - .56 density) and 4 of my heaviest sets (.675 - .71 density), and found fractionally wider ring spacing on the heavy group.  All Euro, from 5 different sources.

Then there's the piece of Bigleaf with finger-width grain spacing at .77 density.

I've observed this with bridge blanks, as well. Some really nice bridges get passed up because they have a low grain count, but excellent structural qualities like high stiffness and low weight. 

[HoGo]

Now that we are talking about origins of wood the guys used I always wondered if there is any evidence about origin of their maple (other than oppio that was very likely local). I always read Bosnian maple but isn't this similar story to the "val di..." spruce?

[sospiri]

14 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Traveling vendors are nothing new.

Some guy around that time figures out what sort of wood makers like. Finds a mill that has that sort of wood, and will cut it to his specs. Loads up his freight wagon and hits the road.

Why not? (aside from it lacking the kinkiness of some weirdo maker going through the forest at night during a full moon, tapping on trees)

Surely the spruce would have been split into bolts then planed into billets by the dealer not in a saw mill?

[Ratcliffiddles]

33 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Surely the spruce would have been split into bolts then planed into billets by the dealer not in a saw mill?

Actually, in view of the often-seen extremely short period between a "latest ring date" on a violin soundboard, and a supposedly genuine label date, I cannot even contemplate any kind of "squaring up" the logs.  That operation would have removed a significant number of outer rings, something which is totally incompatible with what I see.  Therefore, I suspect the logs may have instead been chopped into shorter rounds/billets, maybe split further into halves or quarters by the dealer before reaching the workshops. 

 

15 hours ago, David Burgess said:

aside from it lacking the kinkiness of some weirdo maker going through the forest at night during a full moon, tapping on trees)

What?? you don't think that's true??

[jacobsaunders]

15 hours ago, David Burgess said:

 

Why not? (aside from it lacking the kinkiness of some weirdo maker going through the forest at night during a full moon, tapping on trees)

 

9 minutes ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

 

 

What?? you don't think that's true??

That's how he does it

[Ratcliffiddles]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

That's how he does it

The most famous Forest in Switzerland for tonewood is aptly named "Forest of the Arses"

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, sospiri said:

Surely the spruce would have been split into bolts then planed into billets by the dealer not in a saw mill?

Why not sawn into radial billets at the sawmill, leaving the excess weight and bulk at the mill (particularly with maple)?

[sospiri]

1 hour ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

Actually, in view of the often-seen extremely short period between a "latest ring date" on a violin soundboard, and a supposedly genuine label date, I cannot even contemplate any kind of "squaring up" the logs.  That operation would have removed a significant number of outer rings, something which is totally incompatible with what I see.  Therefore, I suspect the logs may have instead been chopped into shorter rounds/billets, maybe split further into halves or quarters by the dealer before reaching the workshops. 

Thanks Peter. Indeed it was your observation that both heartwood and sapwood was used by Stradivari.

My own observation is that the wood must be split into billets soon after the rounds are sawn to prevent checking.

[sospiri]

3 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Why not sawn into radial billets at the sawmill, leaving the excess weight and bulk at the mill?

Because splitting spruce is quick and efficient and sorts the useable wood from the unuseable.

[David Burgess]

19 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Why not? (aside from it lacking the kinkiness of some weirdo maker going through the forest at night during a full moon, tapping on trees)

 

4 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

What?? you don't think that's true??

Well, I think that violinmakers wasting their time by contemplating their navels is a relatively newer thing.

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, sospiri said:

Because splitting spruce is quick and efficient and sorts the useable wood from the unuseable.

So is sawing, if one selects a tree with little twist. So if one is at the sawmill anyway....

[sospiri]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

So is sawing, if one selects a tree with little twist. So if one is at the sawmill anyway....

I think the sawmill issue is a red herring. Most or all of the processing in olden times and now can be done at the site where the tree is felled. 

[David Burgess]

3 hours ago, sospiri said:

I think the sawmill issue is a red herring. Most or all of the processing in olden times and now can be done at the site where the tree is felled. 

Yes, it can. It's pretty difficult with maple though.

[Ratcliffiddles]

11 hours ago, sospiri said:

I think the sawmill issue is a red herring. Most or all of the processing in olden times and now can be done at the site where the tree is felled. 

From what I have read, that was not the case in most of northern Italy.   Mechanical, hydro-powered sawmills were downstream. There were many and are well recorded.

Where trees were felled, I understand that only de-barking and sawn to length, usually 12 (Venetian) ft. was carried out in the forest, each tree stamped with the owners brand for later selection,  before sliding them down to the nearest stream. 

The sawmills are where some of the processing was done. They were called "venetian sawmills", and seem to have existed since at least the 1400s, their number expanding in the 18th century.  Obviously, these dealt mostly with coniferous species from the Alps, not the maple.  

[sospiri]

4 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

From what I have read, that was not the case in most of northern Italy.   Mechanical, hydro-powered sawmills were downstream. There were many and are well recorded.

Where trees were felled, I understand that only de-barking and sawn to length, usually 12 (Venetian) ft. was carried out in the forest, each tree stamped with the owners brand for later selection,  before sliding them down to the nearest stream. 

The sawmills are where some of the processing was done. They were called "venetian sawmills", and seem to have existed since at least the 1400s, their number expanding in the 18th century.  Obviously, these dealt mostly with coniferous species from the Alps, not the maple.  

For the Venetian industries yes. Logs floated down the Piave river. Do you believe that the lost valley was somewhere near the upper reaches of the Piave?

But if Banchetti traded from Brescia, could another route have been more feasible, such as the Adige river? It drops only 150 metres between Bolzano and Verona.

Or do you believe that the source of the spruce was in a different part of the Dolomites?

[sospiri]

13 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Yes, it can. It's pretty difficult with maple though.

Indeed. 

[Ratcliffiddles]

7 hours ago, sospiri said:

For the Venetian industries yes. Logs floated down the Piave river. Do you believe that the lost valley was somewhere near the upper reaches of the Piave?

But if Banchetti traded from Brescia, could another route have been more feasible, such as the Adige river? It drops only 150 metres between Bolzano and Verona.

Or do you believe that the source of the spruce was in a different part of the Dolomites?

There were many locations, not just one valley.