Is this arching wrong ?

[Dr. Mark]

4 hours ago, LCF said:

I have come to the view that we are at an historically significant branching point  between the old conservative faction who believe that volins are curvey wavey bulbous things versus the young radicals who insist they are flat in every direction

OMG - Cubist fantasy! 

 

[LCF]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mark said:

OMG - Cubist fantasy! 

 

Ex-actly.

[reguz]

One thing I am absolutely sure of. None of you know how a violin works. Reason no one dares to constructively start or participate in a discussion.

Most of the posts that have come have nothing to do with what I am trying to start. It is the ultimate proof. Very sad but true to experience this.

The most important thing to understand is what G Stoppani shows misleads you into understanding what actually happens when an instrument enters a dynamic state. Neither of you understand what really happens in a static state produced by string tension.

It is against the background of these misunderstandings that I hoped that at least one person understood to answer my question. But not understanding the question already shows a lack of knowledge. And then things get rude:

Rudeness can take many forms. It is generally defined as a display of disrespect, a breaking of social norms or expectations, a breach of etiquette, or ignoring "accepted" behavior. It can also mean someone behaving inconsiderately, aggressively or deliberately offensively.

[Peter K-G]

Even if the first reaction would be to respond aggressively to what you just posted. I'll ignore the most of it and correct the biggest error in it.

I have tried to enter a discussion with you in this thread. I think Dr. Mark tried recently also. You are not willing to discuss or you fail to skip the post in between and follow a conversation.

[David Burgess]

3 hours ago, reguz said:

One thing I am absolutely sure of. None of you know how a violin works. Reason no one dares to constructively start or participate in a discussion.
Etc. Etc.

Yawn. Then you might as well give up, right? Permanently? Find a different hobby with more compliant victims who are more easily mislead?

It sucks when other people won't totally submit to your control, doesn't it! Sheesh, what the heck is wrong with these people?

[uncle duke]

2 hours ago, reguz said:

One thing I am absolutely sure of. None of you know how a violin works. 

Have you ever cut your own neck block, tail block and the four corner blocks and then subsequently glued them to an interior mold?

let’s go back a little further - have you made or borrowed a violin mold yet?

  Have you ever disassembled a violin before?

how about replane a fingerboard?  How about cutting and fitting a new violin bridge?

speaking of fittings, have you turned new pegs for a pegboard?

these are just some things that one needs to know to really understand how a violin works.

i understand you reguz trying to pad your totals so that your family, friends and other townspeople can say my, what a man but in reality you needs to face it - it’s not quite good enough for world wide attention let alone for your own town or city.

hint - the more you do it the better you will get.

[LCF]

2 hours ago, reguz said:

One thing I am absolutely sure of. None of you know how a violin works. .

...

Rudeness can take many forms. It is generally defined as a display of disrespect, (etc.)

 

Is this self-referential?

 

 

[Andreas Preuss]

3 hours ago, reguz said:

One thing I am absolutely sure of. None of you know how a violin works. Reason no one dares to constructively start or participate in a discussion.

Most of the posts that have come have nothing to do with what I am trying to start. It is the ultimate proof. Very sad but true to experience this.

The most important thing to understand is what G Stoppani shows misleads you into understanding what actually happens when an instrument enters a dynamic state. Neither of you understand what really happens in a static state produced by string tension.

It is against the background of these misunderstandings that I hoped that at least one person understood to answer my question. But not understanding the question already shows a lack of knowledge. And then things get rude:

Rudeness can take many forms. It is generally defined as a display of disrespect, a breaking of social norms or expectations, a breach of etiquette, or ignoring "accepted" behavior. It can also mean someone behaving inconsiderately, aggressively or deliberately offensively.

What I would like to see is the following experiment:

A sound graph of a violin which is perfectly constructed and adjusted following your concept. And then in an experiment you replace the back plate with one which disregards by purpose your concept and make a comparison of the sound graph to show the actual effect if it. 

For a convincing result the wood for the two back plates must be taken from the same tree or have same properties in density and Young modulus. 

[David Burgess]

Andreas, no such experiment is necessary, because the inherent superiority of Zuger's concept is already perfectly obvious (to anyone with half a brain).

[fscotte]

On 12/8/2023 at 9:18 AM, reguz said:

David let us discus what happens with the violin body as C Gough and Goli/Carlson do and show.

They support the instrument on the end blocks. By increasing string load as it is by Gough Stoppani and Goli/Carlson  the center become forced down. Yes you can observe this easy  but the question is; Is this what happens with the instrument by increasing string load. The downward action requires a support. The end block that lay on a support thus take that load. The question you must try to give an answer on is "Do the instruiment become havier?" Thiswe must get an understanding on. Is the observation of down movement of the center correct technically? I say NO. such circumstances never arise on any free in space instrument and thus are wrong, in fact impossible. If you do not agree just let me know and why.

To David I say wait and try answer on this writing. I am not talking about medals etc. 

A violin under string load is at a state of equilibrium.  When a string is plucked or bowed, the entire structure bends and moves at the speed of motion (which is at or near the speed of light, depending upon the medium by which energy is moving through).  Generally speaking, wood is a poor conductor of energy compared to say steel.

Energy which starts at the string, moves out into the nut end and the bridge (think of a bow as in a bow and arrow when the string is pulled back), which act as levers.  Any motion radiates sound by interacting with molecules in the air.  The vast portion of sound comes from the fholes which radiate air from the polar opposite movements of the plates, as the wood medium slows down the movement of energy.  But not only the movement of energy, but the variation in the top and back plates "stiffness" causes one plate to move different from the other.  This variation creates air pressure inside the sound box which radiates out the f-holes in a pumping action.  This gives a violin it's unique tonal characteristics.

As far as the need for arching, it's purpose is to create a stronger plate by reducing thickness and thus mass.  It also perhaps has a tonal characteristic by allowing more airspace inside the sound box, and it's outside shape which radiates sound different than a flat plate.  (Think arch top guitar vs flattop).  

Now I have no clue what this discussion is about but I thought I would put my two cents in.

 

[Violadamore]

15 minutes ago, fscotte said:

A violin under string load is at a state of equilibrium.  When a string is plucked or bowed, the entire structure bends and moves at the speed of motion (which is at or near the speed of light, depending upon the medium by which energy is moving through).

.......................................

Now I have no clue what this discussion is about but I thought I would put my two cents in.

 

Thankfully, the velocity of propagation you chose is erroneous.  In the discussed case, it's only the speed of sound.  Otherwise, you'd have just invented the thermoviolinic bomb.   

[fscotte]

8 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Thankfully, the velocity of propagation you chose is erroneous.  In the discussed case, it's only the speed of sound.  Otherwise, you'd have just invented the thermoviolinic bomb.   

Not true. The speed of movement is near the speed of light, but slowed by the density of the atoms in the medium.

Think of a long pole that stretches a mile.  If you push on the pole at one end, the opposite end does not move immediately, because the energy that started from your end is transferred through the atoms along the pole (domino affect). This movement wants to be near the speed of light but cannot because the medium slows it down.

All movement wants to be near the speed of light, but not at the speed of light.  Speed of light is constant and it's velocity is not affected by any medium known to man.

[GeorgeH]

7 minutes ago, fscotte said:

All movement wants to be near the speed of light, but not at the speed of light. 

[fscotte]

1 minute ago, GeorgeH said:

Yes it's food for thought.  But accurate. 

 

[LCF]

5 minutes ago, fscotte said:

Yes it's food for thought.  But accurate. 

 

So, what is the speed of light in solid brass???

[fscotte]

I'm joking. 

I thought it would fit this discussion nicely.  I have no idea how a violin works.

[jacobsaunders]

The nice thing about violins, is that the exact physics of how and why it works have always been mysterious. For centuries there have always been no end of egg-heads, queueing up to explain everything to perfection, and one may ignore them all, since they only make fools of themselves

[Dr. Mark]

29 minutes ago, fscotte said:

I'm joking. 

You were perfect.

[Don Noon]

2 hours ago, fscotte said:

All movement wants to be near the speed of light

Movement doesn't "want" anything.  It just reacts and does what it does.

Everything is squishy.

 

2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

The nice thing about violins, is that the exact physics of how and why it works have always been mysterious. For centuries there have always been no end of egg-heads, queueing up to explain everything to perfection, and one may ignore them all, since they only make fools of themselves

There is nothing mysterious about the physics of the violin, at least in the fundamental sense.  The underlying physics of vibration, damping, acoustics, materials... all of that is well understood.  There are 2 big issues, though...

1)  It's really, really complex.  There's a lot of things going on at once, and some of the actual properties of the material can have local variations, etc.  You can never figure out everything.

2)  Even if you COULD solve all of the exact vibrations, there is no physics to tell you what a player or listener thinks of it; everything is subjective and personal.  There is no answer to the problem, much less a single, perfect solution.

 

[jacobsaunders]

20 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

 

1)  It's really, really complex.  There's a lot of things going on at once, and some of the actual properties of the material can have local variations, etc.  You can never figure out everything.

2)  Even if you COULD solve all of the exact vibrations, there is no physics to tell you what a player or listener thinks of it; everything is subjective and personal.  There is no answer to the problem, much less a single, perfect solution.

 

Yes, mysterious in plain English

[Don Noon]

51 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Yes, mysterious in plain English

I prefer "unfathomable"

"Mystery" implies (to me, anyway) an unknown that can be solved or discovered.  "Unfathomable", not so much.

Picky, picky.

[reguz]

7 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

What I would like to see is the following experiment:

A sound graph of a violin which is perfectly constructed and adjusted following your concept. And then in an experiment you replace the back plate with one which disregards by purpose your concept and make a comparison of the sound graph to show the actual effect if it. 

For a convincing result the wood for the two back plates must be taken from the same tree or have same properties in density and Young modulus. 

Andreas.

You are correct by writing the end blocks become pulled towards THE TOP OF THE BRIDGE and the sound post is the pivot on which the bending of the back plate happens.

However, I would not say it is specific for my or any model it is about understanding technical circumstances. What we can expect from deforming the rib is that it may become shorter between the end blocks which in return may wider the instrument. Especially how this widening may happen has been part of my investigation. I will return to this later on.

You also are correct when we make the rib structure total UN DEFORMABLE, we talk about complete different technical circumstance that become produced.

But this we do not find on any instrument.

But accepting we have such un deformable structure the complete arching shape function with a numerous number of different vault shapes. Some of them hold specific greater resistant for deformation The outline of what we call the rib in your thinking thus do not allow bending/twisting nor widening/shortening as I understand you are thinking.

Starting this discussion, I will not discuss the STLs I found and what function they have. Later on in this discussion we come to that.

But in what you see the arching of course will have action, thus pressure on the top of the arching will act different in different direction. Short and longer curves with support. I believe we can expect that some of these curves vault shape will almost get no load pressure at all.

But in my theory, it is just this what is important finding out. Can complete structure act and benefit on equal basis.

So, my construction idea was to find and answer on how can I construct an arching shape that always contain four equal shaped vault curves that become stress. In order to able to find out I had to make a basic model that I could change and by manipulation shape finding such conditions. In a separate document I have described how I started my investigation what I did and how I finally found the solution on this problem. I stop here now and you may consider and let know your opinion for further discussion

Since I got this geometric model I became able by calculation finding out that such Straight Tangent Lines exist in this geometric modell.

But before I did  I had found the 2D geometric layout for the 3D arching shape.

What I found on the 3D can come later on

 

What I did 1.pdf What I did 2.pdf

[Violadamore]

6 hours ago, fscotte said:

I'm joking. 

I thought it would fit this discussion nicely.  I have no idea how a violin works.

That's a relief.  I was wondering if reguz had spawned a sockpuppet.   

[Andreas Preuss]

2 hours ago, reguz said:

You also are correct when we make the rib structure total UN DEFORMABLE, we talk about complete different technical circumstance that become produced.

But this we do not find on any instrument

IMHO worthwhile for further investigation and what we can do with ultra stiff ribs in practice. I think it is the key to build lighter instruments with more sound projection without scarifying a desirable sound quality and bow response. 
 

[Andreas Preuss]

8 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

The nice thing about violins, is that the exact physics of how and why it works have always been mysterious. For centuries there have always been no end of egg-heads, queueing up to explain everything to perfection, and one may ignore them all, since they only make fools of themselves

It depends what you define as exact physics. 
 

There were plenty of people who build instruments based on theories which attempted to explain all. Their results failed and those made fool of themselves. True.

However, without physics we wouldn’t be standing where we are now. Regardless how you view the practical use, it propelled our craft to new heights at least in terms of how to better evaluate what we hear and how we hear it. Physics also could clarify partial aspects like how to prevent wolf notes and how to fine tune tonal adjustments. In any case it should be clear to anyone that there will be never a general formula where you feed in basic parameters and it will spit out what you have to watch for when you build the instrument. 
 

Regardless I see also a trend that physics will help in the near future to boost up industrial production. This won’t be at the top level competing with the best human makers but will cut off the bad lower end of really disfunctional mass produced instruments.