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Cello endpins material


MarcoCello

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35 minutes ago, cellopera said:

Unfortunately, this comparison doesn’t help, since other instruments might react in a completely different way with the same endpins.

While this is true, the outcome shows first of all that, Yes, end pins do make a difference, and, secondly, in which direction one might want to try out. It is better than nothing.

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So what do you conclude from this?  I listened to the playing tests and liked the New Harmony CF the best.  The Aitchisen stuff is just his personal opinion, nothing more--take this with a grain of salt.  By the way,the first playing test was using a microphone, most likely in the front of the instrument--does the player even hear the difference?  

My conclusion is still the same--a small effect.  Do not waste your time.  I like the CF endpins because it lowers the weight of the instrument, and that is a good thing.  

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3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Perhaps so, but in my opinion, an accumulation of small effects can add up to very large effects, so even the small effects are worth pursuing, if one is into pushing the envelope.

That’s absolutely right. Anything that can make my instrument sound better, even by a few percentages, is worth it!

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The most important thing you can do to improve the sound of your cello, today, is to clean the strings.  I suggest alcohol with the usual warning to not spill any on the varnish.  

But, if you want to go down the route of incremental improvement, then the next thing after the endpin would be the tailpiece.  And then strings--do you know any cellist who is satisfied with their strings?  And then on to soundpost adjustment.  Finally, you replace the entire instrument and bow. 

Is there ever any end to this?

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Can not argue with different strings and post adjustments.

Been on the fence about acquiring a cello for a student. Let's call it American, turn of the millennium. It is a relative bargain assuming there are negotiations on behalf of the student.

With permission of the seller, strings will be swapped, post adjusted and even tailpieces replaced. The prices of these instruments are not a casual purchase. When it comes to the adjustments in regards to Belgian styled bridge, end pin, then you are correct in that these might be micro adjustments. The older player's abilities are far greater than that of a college student. My job is to be adaptive in what might be the better direction.

And the cost of a replacement, much less and upgrade, is impossible or impractical. 

For the relative costs of 1- 3% of the overall value, the endpin and even a bridge, if it makes the player happier or bridges the difficulty into professional level work, the cost should be well worth it.

With a $2k usd instrument, a 15- 20% investment might not be prudent, but if the changes are significant enough for the player, it might be their choice. A better set of strings costs more than some of the more affordable "boutique" end pins, though the cost is in the set and trying. With more generic clamping mechanisms, the swapping of 8- 10mm end pins should be easy. 

And improvements and changes are not synonymous. Many understand this. But subjectively, it is difficult to judge others unless they are students or friends whom I can be honest with my opinions. I have eaten shoe plenty of times. There are back stories, reasons, desires, needs, for players/ people to do what they do.

Strings should be clean for most players. I do use and like some composite end pins, but in experimenting with hollow steel tubes, it might be argued that some composite pins are heavier. The "aerospace"  hollow ti tubes, also vary significantly in weight. The actual pin is relatively stationary, so can be of any mass. The difficulty was that there were inferior composite endpins early on, generally too bouncy and bad fits, even though there were equally inferior steel or whatever end pins.   

I understand the skepticism of many. I am a skeptic. Thus the search. But I do want to better comprehend what I hear and feel. Certainly, there are individual ideals. This might be one of a shop's frustrations.

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Cello setup should maximize the cello potential in terms of playability and sound. Endpin has an effect, you just have to try different endpins and play the instrument to feel the differences, and you can hear also the differences. Under the bow the difference between CF and steel is real and reproductible. I agree that compared to many other things in setup (such as strings quality or soundest fitting) it can be considered small but not small enough so that it can be completely overlooked after the basics step up has been done.

Beyond the basic function of endpins (stability) there seems to be a room for further tweaking and if the rest of the set up is correct, why not exploring this path ?

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3 hours ago, MarcoCello said:

Cello setup should maximize the cello potential in terms of playability and sound. Endpin has an effect, you just have to try different endpins and play the instrument to feel the differences,

Some years ago, I bought (by mistake) a “super high tech” spike with Titan screw, special carbon rod with, according to the blurb “optimal vibration and transmission characteristics” and so on.. The recommended retail price came to a breath taking €600, and that is before I have undressed the cello to fit it, and put it all back together again. I have asked all cello customers, including those with expensive Italian Celli, and no one is remotely prepared to pay €600 for a spike. If anyone comes to me and wants to try different end-pins, they will be sent to a colleague of mine who I don’t particularly like very much

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18 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Some years ago, I bought (by mistake) a “super high tech” spike with Titan screw, special carbon rod with, according to the blurb “optimal vibration and transmission characteristics” and so on.. The recommended retail price came to a breath taking €600, and that is before I have undressed the cello to fit it, and put it all back together again. I have asked all cello customers, including those with expensive Italian Celli, and no one is remotely prepared to pay €600 for a spike. If anyone comes to me and wants to try different end-pins, they will be sent to a colleague of mine who I don’t particularly like very much

600€ ? If you really want another breathtaking reaction, check out this 2000€ endpin: https://www.instrumagic.com

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Some years ago, I bought (by mistake) a “super high tech” spike with Titan screw, special carbon rod with, according to the blurb “optimal vibration and transmission characteristics” and so on..

With a description like that, it would obviously be superior, without question. ;)

I've been doing development work on The Hammer Of The Thunder God Thor endpin, and the Monster Truck endpin, which will not only eclipse everything which has come before in both sound quality and power, but also "tickle the tiddler", making the playing more expressive. :lol:

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One can always disregard any set up element beyond the basics and refer to the "snake oil" or "just go practice, look, the pros don't even care about that" but for amateurs, those things matters as much as improving the technique... Did you at least tried by yourself (I mean, really playing the cello) 2 very different endpins on a particular cello ? No variation ? Any cellist will feel the difference, and if there is a difference, one is obviously better for a particular cello for a particular player. Is it worthing 600 or 2000 bucks, may be not, but not endpins are so expensive, and if there is a difference, 200 vs 50 €/$ may be viable...

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Hi all,

I did some experiments. Comparison are against the 52 cm steel tube endpin. I tried :

  • no endpin at all (removing the stick only) = close to carbon fiber endpin feeling, less power, less focus, but easier to play, resonance is more "free", less core to the sound, less ringing, articulation is better and eases string crossing
  • 62 cm steel tube without using it extended (100% inside the cello) = more ringing, more power, more focus, not so much difference under the bow, not different to play
  • the 62 cm steel tube but extended at the balance point of the endpin = even more ringing, focus, tone is strong
  • same as previous but with magnets to add 40g (140 + 40g total weight) = even more ringing, focus and tone... 

Should I conclude that my cello responds well to a heavier endpin ? Seems so... I expect to hear some laughs at my subjective experiments :lol:

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35 minutes ago, MarcoCello said:

Hi all,

I did some experiments. Comparison are against the 52 cm steel tube endpin. I tried :

  • no endpin at all (removing the stick only) = close to carbon fiber endpin feeling, less power, less focus, but easier to play, resonance is more "free", less core to the sound, less ringing, articulation is better and eases string crossing
  • 62 cm steel tube without using it extended (100% inside the cello) = more ringing, more power, more focus, not so much difference under the bow, not different to play
  • the 62 cm steel tube but extended at the balance point of the endpin = even more ringing, focus, tone is strong
  • same as previous but with magnets to add 40g (140 + 40g total weight) = even more ringing, focus and tone... 

Should I conclude that my cello responds well to a heavier endpin ? Seems so... I expect to hear some laughs at my subjective experiments :lol:

No laughter here. You can find 10mm diameter solid rods at your local do-it-yourself store. I got aluminum, hollow brass and two types of steel rods for a total of 20 Euros or so. If you find one you like, you can order a pin to superglue onto the rod from saddle rider, and you are good to go.

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Thanks. I'm aware of the Saddle Rider tips but I'm in Europe and the cost for shipping one tip will be ridiculous...

Anyway I can probably find a similar product here or even have one made for me by some local metal company where I live. I've also found screwed tips but I would need to have the rod tapped (threaded ? I'm not sure of the English word). For the rod itself, I guess that I can find almost anything either at the DIY shop or online. I had even the stupid idea to build a carbon fiber/brass hybrid endpin myself (such as the Durod endpin) but I don't know... maybe I'm going a little bit too much enthusiastic about it... Anyway, I would like to at least test a solid steel, titanium or brass, just for curiosity and settle with an endpin and forget about it. 

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37 minutes ago, MarcoCello said:

Thanks. I'm aware of the Saddle Rider tips but I'm in Europe and the cost for shipping one tip will be ridiculous...

Anyway I can probably find a similar product here or even have one made for me by some local metal company where I live. I've also found screwed tips but I would need to have the rod tapped 

Well , I 'm also in Europe,  so if you let me know about your sources for tips here, even the threaded ones, that would be greatly appreciated! 

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Threaded one https://www.dictum.com/fr/pieces-de-rechange-jkc/pointe-interchangeable-inox-a-filetage-m5-violoncelle-pro-pointe-tres-pointue-434101

I'm working with a company whose main activity is boilermaking (chaudronnerie in french) that performs special metal equipment for my job, they can have steel rods to be machined to any shape including a tip such as the Saddle Rider ones. Should cost more than buying it directly but if you consider the shipping costs I will be less.

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Strange, cannot access the site.

 

Edit: ok accessed using my phone, don't know why can't access with my computer....

Indeed, endpins transmit the sound to the floor so it would make sens to use the endpin that transmit the most with cello podiums ! But I'm not sure that we understand everything that is happening physically in a cello... is the "Krentz" theory true ? You need the endpin to "resist" vibration so it is sent back to the cello for more sound ? And the "Faster" theory that claims air and sound needs to be "drained" out from the cello ? .... :(

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