Earliest date for throughneck violin method

[Schnefsky]

Hi, this throughneck that I acquired has a date of 1779 etched into a rib, and a repairers date of 1887 pencilled inside. I'm wondering if the 1779 date could be legit. Throughnecks appear to be common in the early 1800s. Does anyone know the earliest dating of this construction method? Thanks in advance. I can't seem to find this info online.

Added: London is stamped below the button, and maybe another word that is illegible.  Top plate is missing. Neck is shorter at 120 instead of 130. One piece back.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Schnefsky
More pictures and info were requested by a member

[FiddleDoug]

Absolutely not 1779. Aside from the fact that no maker would scratch that into a rib, a 1779 violin would almost certainly be much darker inside. The 1887 date is much closer.

[Schnefsky]

Thanks! I would think an owner did the 1779 date, not the maker. But I would like to know, when was the first known throughneck made? Were they contemporaneous with Baroque or only much later? I've fixed up a few and most were quite nice tone and liked by old timey fiddlers. But, just how far back in history was the throughneck constructed?

[Mark Caudle]

I don't know but suspect about 1500!

[Guido]

Five largely unaltered instruments in existence from ca 1590 with the maker/s documented back to 1550.

[Blank face]

Throughneck is probably older than nailed on. The oldest surviving at violins are to my knowledge those in the Freiberger Dom, mid/ late 16th century.

[Shelbow]

Do you have some more pictures of the head and the back?

[FiddleDoug]

9 hours ago, Schnefsky said:

Thanks! I would think an owner did the 1779 date, not the maker. But I would like to know, when was the first known throughneck made? Were they contemporaneous with Baroque or only much later? I've fixed up a few and most were quite nice tone and liked by old timey fiddlers. But, just how far back in history was the throughneck constructed?

You're making an assumption that it's a date! There's nothing that would really indicate that it's a date (like saying anno). It could be a rental inventory number. It looks like more of the usual to me.

[Guido]

Thanks for the additional pictures.

interesting violin, not the usual.

the head doesn’t look Saxon, and the lower block has an unusual shape.

the island for the trough neck is odd though as it reaches much further into the body than the neck. Maybe it was shortened.

the construction method can be found at old English instruments, too.

while the brand (xxxx London), may or may not be the maker, the violin could still be English.

[Guido]

Looking at the lower block, it is installed with a different grain orientation. I don’t think this would have happened in Saxony.

but it is also possible that the lower block is not original to the violin.

[Brad Dorsey]

10 hours ago, Schnefsky said:

...just how far back in history was the throughneck constructed?

Through necks pre-date the violin.

According to Karl Roy's book:  The lira family of instruments, dating mainly 1450 to 1600, "are the predecessors of the violin family."  The lira de braccio had ribs "inserted into the neck."  Lirae de braccio are shown in artwork dating 1390 to 1534, and they were still in use after 1600.  (pages 83-86)

[Schnefsky]

Thanks to everyone for some very good information you provided.